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Hey Scott,

All models are assumed to be carrying a hand weapon unless it specifically states that they're unarmed. So the Woodelf with the bow has that as well as his handweapon.

As for what he actually has, it's the weapon that the model is carrying. So a warrior of rohan whose model is carrying an axe is assumed to have an axe.

Does that answer your question?

Assume a dagger if you can't actually see a weapon.

Problem now is, if he's got a basic hand weapon, by default, what is it? Because all the different weapons now have slightly difference special rules - 'hand weapons' could be any of the many single handed swords, knives, daggers, clubs, maces, hammers etc etc...

jscottbowman wrote:

No, an unspecified, unmodeled hand weapon has none of those characteristics, it has no special strikes.

Most of the Wood Elves do show one or two daggers on their belt. A couple do not. I don't think feinting with an Elf is a good idea so it's probably a moot point for them, but your example spans all armies.

Author:	jscottbowman [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:58 am ]
Post subject:	Basic weapons
Hi Folks, back to the game again after another break... curious about The Hobbit new weapon stats, and basic weapons, and thus implications... First up, I recall all regular models are assume to be equipped with a regular 'hand weapon', included in their points value. (unless specifically stated otherwise) But that got me thinking... when playing through some of the old scenarios, eg from FOTN... if an entry is 'WoodElf with ElfBow"... is that all he has, the Elfbow, and no 'Hand Weapon'? If so he's going to be classed as unarmed in a melee or at best using an improvised weapon? Or does he still have a hand weapon, by default, in addition to the listed Elfbow? Problem now is, if he's got a basic hand weapon, by default, what is it? Because all the different weapons now have slightly difference special rules - 'hand weapons' could be any of the many single handed swords, knives, daggers, clubs, maces, hammers etc etc... Any ruling on this anywhere? Or default interpretation? Cheers Scott

Author:	Gwaryan [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
Hey Scott, All models are assumed to be carrying a hand weapon unless it specifically states that they're unarmed. So the Woodelf with the bow has that as well as his handweapon. As for what he actually has, it's the weapon that the model is carrying. So a warrior of rohan whose model is carrying an axe is assumed to have an axe. Does that answer your question?

Author:	jscottbowman [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
Gwaryan wrote: Hey Scott, All models are assumed to be carrying a hand weapon unless it specifically states that they're unarmed. So the Woodelf with the bow has that as well as his handweapon. As for what he actually has, it's the weapon that the model is carrying. So a warrior of rohan whose model is carrying an axe is assumed to have an axe. Does that answer your question? Thanks for reply... your answer makes sense... but IIRC my WoodElf Archer is not modelled with any other weapon... As per picture So what to do in this instance?

Author:	Draugluin [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
Assume a dagger if you can't actually see a weapon.

Author:	jscottbowman [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
Draugluin wrote: Assume a dagger if you can't actually see a weapon. Yeah thats kinda what I was leaning towards, but I've been away from game for a while and had wondered if anything official had come down from on high

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Author:	whafrog [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
jscottbowman wrote: Problem now is, if he's got a basic hand weapon, by default, what is it? Because all the different weapons now have slightly difference special rules - 'hand weapons' could be any of the many single handed swords, knives, daggers, clubs, maces, hammers etc etc... No, an unspecified, unmodeled hand weapon has none of those characteristics, it has no special strikes.

Author:	Tezzy [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
whafrog wrote: jscottbowman wrote: Problem now is, if he's got a basic hand weapon, by default, what is it? Because all the different weapons now have slightly difference special rules - 'hand weapons' could be any of the many single handed swords, knives, daggers, clubs, maces, hammers etc etc... No, an unspecified, unmodeled hand weapon has none of those characteristics, it has no special strikes. Agreed, they count as armed unless otherwise stated, but a Giant Spider doesn't have the ability to Feint, which would be the case if it had a dagger.

Author:	Draugluin [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
I forgot that daggers could feint as well, thought they were the basic unspecified hand weapon.

Author:	jscottbowman [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
OK so basic hand weapon, with no special strikes, as a default hand weapon. Cool as . Thanks.

Author:	Goldman25 [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
The FAQ says that you should assume every model has a hand weapon unless their description specifically says they are unarmed. However, unless the model has the weapon modelled onto them visibly, they can't use a special strike.

Author:	Coenus Scaldingus [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
Whether a model without a visible hand weapon can be converted to have one, is not clear however.

Author:	Goldman25 [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
It's WYSIWYG, I think. If you sculpt a particular weapon onto their hip/back, then that's their weapon, and they can use that special strike. For example, Ori's sculpt has him wielding his slingshot, but because he has a dagger/sword sheathed on his back, he can use Feint.

Author:	Beowulf03809 [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
Most of the Wood Elves do show one or two daggers on their belt. A couple do not. I don't think feinting with an Elf is a good idea so it's probably a moot point for them, but your example spans all armies.

Author:	Dr Grant [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
It's one of those things where the intention of the rules is clear. The rule was introduced to add spice to individual combats and make you interact with your models more by looking at what they're armed with, not to encourage everyone to glue axes onto the backs of all their models. The FAQ states that if you cannot see which hand weapon a model is armed with then it cannot make a special strike. Lets look at Moria goblins, the point of this rule is that the sword armed models have an advantage over the bow/spear armed models. The intention was clearly not to now go and grab all your warriors of Minas Tirith, cut their swords off and glue axes on. It really comes down to what you're trying to achieve, my feral Uruk Hai come with swords, they'd be better if I put an axe in each hand but I won't as it's clearly against the spirit of the rules, you could do the same with hunter orcs and benefit from their many blades rule AND a Piercing Strike but in doing so you're clearly abusing the rules. I think you can see the intention of the games design team in the new DOS supplement where Warriors of Dale, Laketown, Gundabad orcs, Gundabad orc captains etc. are all specifically described as having a 'sword' rather than a 'hand weapon' this is clearly there to stop people chopping all the daggers of Laketown Warriors and giving them all axes. If you want to make a really cool unique Uruk captain conversion then you should, of course, be encouraged to model them with a staff, flail, axe or whatever you want but just gluing axes onto the backs of all your Wood Elves is pure cheese and abusing the intention of the rules.

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Author:	Stormcrow [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
Beowulf03809 wrote: Most of the Wood Elves do show one or two daggers on their belt. A couple do not. I don't think feinting with an Elf is a good idea so it's probably a moot point for them, but your example spans all armies. I'm pretty sure the daggers that are sculpted on are intended to represent the optional throwing knives. Throwing weapons cannot be used in the fight phase so feinting would not be allowed.

Author:	Beowulf03809 [ Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Basic weapons
So far I hardly use the special strikes regardless, but just to continue the discussion...the throwing daggers are an optional wargear. An option which I use a lot but optional none the less. The presence of a hand weapon (dagger) is consistent with all WE profiles...not just an option. So when something is modeled onto the figure it's usually not going to be an 'option'. Yes, they could very well represent the throwing weapons that are optional but they could just as easily represent the hand weapon available while the model is using the bow or spear. For that matter one could be the hand weapon and one a throwing dagger...or they could be eating utensils. But I do feel that for a model to have use of a special strike the model should be HOLDING the weapon. This is not part of the rule as far as I recall and nothing that would hold water officially but it's a personal preference. I know the introduction of special strikes has brought some shifting of effectiveness, some are way better than others, and some leave options for abuse. Keeping things as simple as possible in this area is the best order of business I think. The old standard Orc models have a great variety in how you could equip them and this give a wonderful example of mixing things up with the special weapons. Rohan has some with axes and others swords. A few other forces like this exist as well. But for most standard armies one type of weapon or another is used by the majority of the army. In most formal armies troops would not deviate from these standard weapons. Mob armies (Orcs) or militia armies (Rohan) may have more variety, but something formal like Gondor or even Isengard Uruk Hai (as shown in the films) probably would not. Middle Earth cultures are also pretty solid in some of their tastes and I couldn't picture Elves using axe or hammer, while Dwarves could make use of either of those as well as swords. Again, this is just subjective.