Help with creating a stat line for Gothmog

Crucium Giger · **Posted:** Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:30 pm

Hi guys, as our group is going to start playing SBG I'm going to need to put together a stat line and points cost for the little fellow in my avatar. Obviously it will be based off the Balrog's stats but I could do with some suggestions on how to tweak it, any thoughts?

SouthernDunedain · **Posted:** Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:37 pm

Well gothmog was pretty badass. 10 across the board? Maybe 3 might, 6 will, 2 fate?

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:49 pm

You're basing Gothmogs stats off of the Balrog? Am I the only one who's a little confused?

Gwaryan · **Posted:** Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:15 pm

Gothmog is the name of a very powerful Balrog from the First Age. I think he was their chief.

Coenus Scaldingus · **Joined:** Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:14 am **Posts:** 1121

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:

You're basing Gothmogs stats off of the Balrog? Am I the only one who's a little confused?

Notice the reference to his avatar and read http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gothmog_(balrog)

JamesR · **Posted:** Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:06 pm

I enjoy trying to make stat-lines that aren't OP. This one will be particularly difficult as the normal Balrog is already at the top of the charts.

Here's a shot at a profile
450 points

Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs

F____S____D___A ___W__C___M/W/F
10/-..10...9......5......10.....7.....2/10/1

Special Rules:
Ancient Evil (See Balrog profile)

Resistant to magic

"Swords are of no use here!"- Blades of the Dead and all other strikes against Gothmog's courage value are resolved against D10 rather than 7.

The Lieutenant of Morgoth- In a drawn combat Gothmog always wins on a roll of 3+

SuicidalMarsbar · **Joined:** Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:14 am **Posts:** 1712

Gothmog was bad-ass, but according to some interpretations Balrogs get stronger as they get older - suggesting Gothmog may not necessarily be as 'great' as Durin's Bane.

Taking the Balrog profile and beefing it up will mean you will have a model worth over 500pts that can only really be used in huge games, so for the sake of being able to use the beautiful model more here is what I would do:

Give him a cave drakes stat line/rules, but also give him the Goblin Kings blubber save (except that ALL named weapons should be able to ignore the save). Give him fight 7/3+, a balrog whip, resistance to magic and 3 might/fate and you'll have a really interesting 300pt model who will be a bit more fun to use than the Balrog.

Crucium Giger · **Posted:** Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:42 pm

Thanks for your suggestions guys. The ultimate plan is to have an army of Balorgs/Dwellers led by Gothmog against everything else we have, should be fun!

Lord Maedhros · **Posted:** Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:43 pm

I have Many First Age Profiles that I have created..... For Gothmog I merely gave him more M/W/F and some other special rules to distinguish him from the other Balrogs. I would not say he is any more powerful then the other Balrogs, Feanor held off a lot of the Balrogs and orcs for a while before he died, and Fingon was stalemating Gothmog up until some cheap Balrog came up behind and tripped him..... If you want the stats I made for Gothmog just let me know. :gandalf:

Fëanor, the mighty elf · **Posted:** Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:45 pm

SuicidalMarsbar wrote:

Gothmog was bad-ass, but according to some interpretations Balrogs get stronger as they get older - suggesting Gothmog may not necessarily be as 'great' as Durin's Bane.

I have never heard about this, but I heard about something similar: the Balrogs got stronger as Tolkien developed his stories. In his earliest works, thousands of man-sized Balrogs rode to battle on horses (!), to the destruction of Gondolin, but later they developed in his stories as mighty creatures, larger (but likely still smaller than PJ's version), and much harder to kill. In his latest works, he says there were only 3 to 7 Balrogs in total. I guess this is what you're referring to. In his history, though, the Balrogs themselves did not become stronger as they got older (as far as I'm aware).

Anyway, on topic: I've also thought about a fitting profile for Gothmog some years ago, mostly just making a mightier Balrog. A special rule I added, was the following:
General of Morgoth: Gothmog's Stand Fast! only counts for friendly Heroes, but not for Warriors and has a range of 12".
This would be an interesting mechanism, I think, and would represent him being heedless of the normal troops, but being inspirational to his subordinate captains (who then would command their subordinates again).

Dorthonion · **Posted:** Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:31 pm

Durinsbane was the last (known) survivor of Morgoth's forces. Encyclopaedia of Arda gives the chronology:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/d/durinsbane.html
And now a load of old balrogs

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/b/balrogs.html
Anyway, Durinsbane and Gothmog were creatures of the same level (Maiar) as Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast. Lady Galadriel was half-Maiar. The balrogs had immense power. Where Sauron was Morgoths psy-ops and infiltration specialist, Gothmog was his general and field commander. I would favour him with slightly higher combat and survivability stats but maybe slightly lower on any powers/magic abilities than Durinsbane.

whafrog · **Posted:** Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:54 pm

Dorthonion wrote:

Lady Galadriel was half-Maiar.

No, she was simply a Noldor, on par with Feanor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galadriel

"Galadriel was the only daughter and youngest child of Finarfin, prince of the Noldor, and of Eärwen, who was cousin to Lúthien."

The only Children of Iluvatar with a strain of the divine were Luthien herself and her descendants.

Dorthonion · **Posted:** Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:48 pm

Ah - yes. I stand corrected (sitting here).
That's what happens when you half remember something you have not reread for a few years. I think it was her being born in Valinor during the time of the Trees that confused me.
But back on topic, Gothmog has to be a warmachine - no subtlety, just Death on two legs.
Of course, Ecthelion has to be a tough nut too.

Hodush · **Posted:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:15 am

I like SMB's idea. Otherwise I would suggest the dragon fire upgrade getting worked in there as it seems appropriate.

Grungehog · **Posted:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:47 am

I had him at 500 pts same stat line as a balrog with 6 might 3 fate, His standfast affects everyone within 12" and
Fiery wrath: anyone (bar dwellers and dragons) who steps within 3" of him takes an immediate S9 hit to represent his flaming rage enveloping his friends and foes alike.
I am wondering if you were inspired by my own portrayal of the beast:

http://grungehog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03 ... -dark.html

Tezzy · **Joined:** Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:42 am **Posts:** 160

Since you guys mentioned survivability, maybe he is immune to any sort of poison, instant death, or rules that allow characters to wound on X+ (Aragorn, Azog).

Or maybe increase his resistance to spells to 2 dice? I don't know a lot about Gothmog, and I imagine he would be hard to size up.

Crucium Giger · **Posted:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:14 am

Well there certainly isn't a shortage of ideas here and I've got plenty to think about, thanks everyone.

mertaal · **Posted:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:49 am

Fëanor, the mighty elf wrote:

SuicidalMarsbar wrote:

Gothmog was bad-ass, but according to some interpretations Balrogs get stronger as they get older - suggesting Gothmog may not necessarily be as 'great' as Durin's Bane.

I have never heard about this, but I heard about something similar: the Balrogs got stronger as Tolkien developed his stories. In his earliest works, thousands of man-sized Balrogs rode to battle on horses (!), to the destruction of Gondolin, but later they developed in his stories as mighty creatures, larger (but likely still smaller than PJ's version), and much harder to kill. In his latest works, he says there were only 3 to 7 Balrogs in total. I guess this is what you're referring to. In his history, though, the Balrogs themselves did not become stronger as they got older (as far as I'm aware).

Having indulged in a little bit of reading in to Tolkien's creative process, this fits my understanding. I would advise anyone to whom it matters to do their own research though, because all I've done is skimmed through some of the histories of middle earth, and read a few articles about the development of his mythology in his own mind.

But yes, I think Balrogs changed a number of times during the creative process of Tolkien's writing, to come fully formed in what we saw in the Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion.

It's confusing, because a lot of notes writing has been published since his death, and I think it can sometimes be a little confusing to divide what he intended the public to see from early draughts that he later discounted himself.

VandalCabbage · **Joined:** Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:12 pm **Posts:** 286

If you do make him, maybe his nemesis Ecthelion (you know, pointy helmet guy?) could get some Haldir-esque final strike rule. Personally, I think the profiles for first agers should be toned down from what the stories tell so they don't crash the system. Hurin, for example, should not be able to take down sixty trolls in game because that would render taking him OP.

The regular Balrog profile is quite a nutter so maybe as others said just add a few decorative elements? Maybe some might and fate as balrogs lack this, so it would set him apart without making him cost too much. The fate would also fit in with the survivability thing.

whafrog · **Posted:** Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:05 pm

VandalCabbage wrote:

Personally, I think the profiles for first agers should be toned down from what the stories tell so they don't crash the system. Hurin, for example, should not be able to take down sixty trolls in game because that would render taking him OP.

Agreed. If you're going to host a First Age game, scale everything the other way. Instead of trying to make Gothmog beat the Balrog, make him a 200 or 250 point monster, like an expanded troll chief or Gulhavar. Drakes represent dragons, except Glaurung who uses the full dragon profile. The Noldor owed this period, so keep their stats the same. Other elves weren't as potent by comparison, so maybe drop their Fight and Courage to 4 (except heroes). Dwarves could stay the same. The Men who helped the Noldor would have stats like Numenorians or Dol Amroth. All other men would have a stat line like Warriors of Rohan, without throwing spears. Only Noldor, or their allied Men, would have heavy armour. Evil troops would be limited to evil men (WoR), basic Moria goblins, and Mordor Orcs. No Uruk hai or Morannons or Black Guard, they didn't exist yet, except for maybe some bodyguards.

EDIT: this way you could include Sauron and Morgoth and other monsters. Sauron = Necromancer; Morgoth = Sauron; Gulhavar = Thuringwethil; warg chief model with Burdhur stats = Draugluin...

Help with creating a stat line for Gothmog

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