Dweller in the dark vs Cave troll

Valadorn · **Posted:** Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:36 pm

Dweller in the dark vs Cave troll

Opinions please!
Both can be used on Moria army, i am currently having 2 cave trolls and 1 dweller so if I have to choose what is typically supposed to be better?

I can easily imagine a Dweller on a killing spree but A5 makes its use a little bit tricky. Although 8'' movement may balance the "kiting" (allow me to use this mmo word XD )

Cave troll has S6 , D6 and movement of 6'', can be ranged, has fewer F and low C. Seems weaker to me, so if i am going to use 2 monsters in my army then i would go for 1 dweller and 1 troll, using each one on the correct place!
If i am gonna use 1 of them in an army i cant really say

Hodush · **Posted:** Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:22 pm

Depends who you are up against really. The troll is a better choice I think if you don't know what you are against.

Generally I would say the dweller is a better model as it has the ability to heal and fight value to win against heroes or at least make them spend might. However the troll is more reliable in that it will wound better in most cases and survive better with D6. D5 will get shot up quickly and can be brought down by lowly warriors in one turn much more easily.

Most importantly, I think the dweller looks like Devlan Mud, is a stupid invention, doesn't really fit a theme at all and therefore I would not use. Advantage: Troll.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:19 am

Cave Trolls are more consistent and (usually) cheaper to buy, and your opponent gets to say "They have a Cave Troll" if you have at least one of them. "They have a Dweller in the Dark" just doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

Galadrin · **Posted:** Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:25 am

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

your opponent gets to say "They have a Cave Troll" if you have at least one of them.

Bonus points right there

Lord Hurin · **Posted:** Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:46 am

I agree with Hodush that the Dweller was a dumb concept. It looks like a small Balrog, is in the price range of a Cave Troll and has a similar statline to Gulavhar. All in all, it's rather unnecessary in the list it occupies. But, boy, did it sell a lot of models at $50 a pop.

Tezzy · **Joined:** Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:42 am **Posts:** 160

The one thing I like about the Dweller over the Cave Troll is thatthe Dweller in the Dark has Resistant to Magic. If you are facing small spellcasters, it is really helpful in the long-run. Though it may not slow down a wizard much...

Valadorn · **Posted:** Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:10 pm

Hodush wrote:

Depends who you are up against really.

Tbh this is what really happens for most of this game's miniatures.

As for the price it's the same, just a few less for the dweller. I totally agree for the archery part but as i described on my first post, the dweller moves fast and can be kept out of range (this is bad in some scenarios i know) but in case he can do that he can kill and go. With high F and A3 he can kill even good enemy's troops while healing what he lost from enemy's fire.

It 's really complicating and it's use tricky, that's why i opened the thread but I would like to see also someone's personal experience who have used that on the battlefield.

Grungehog · **Posted:** Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:40 pm

I haven't used my cave trolls since they released the dweller.
Let's face it Resistant to magic, lower point cost, high move value, F7 and C7 and the ability to regen wounds makes the Dweller a no brainer for me.
Admittedly having a larger base makes him more vulnerable to swarming, but that isn't an issue with being in the Moria list, also the argument of he isn't strong enough to wound enemies With S5, but this is easily countered with some conversion work, and the brutal attacks. We have never heard of demons carrying axes or anything...
I converted my Dwellers in the dark from bloodletters of khorne, not only do I love the models but they were also cheaper to buy a warband than a single official model.
I appreciate this is not always to other peoples taste but I like it, and it fits well with silmarilion themes too.
Anyway back to game reasons for using them, I found them really effective in game wining me a good 4 games without losing even one, their rule makes them really survivable, as your enemy needs to kill them out right if they don't want to just regenerate.
Also that C7 means they will actually be able to charge enemies when you need them to, unlike the cave troll who often turns to stone(in a manner of speaking) when something remotely scary shows up.
And all of you don't like the model, it's a demon use your imagination, there are plenty of alternatives out there to suit your own vision.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:49 pm

You can't give Dwellers in the Dark weapons - it would be like giving axes to giant spiders. Creatures are not meant to have hand weapons. If you want a boost to strength - use rend, don't cheat.

JamesR · **Posted:** Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:53 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

You can't give Dwellers in the Dark weapons - it would be like giving axes to giant spiders. Creatures are not meant to have hand weapons. If you want a boost to strength - use rend, don't cheat.

That was my thought as well. He doesn't have hand weapons, because he doesn't need them. He's a monster, strength 5 is plenty

Grungehog · **Posted:** Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:24 pm

He has hands does he not? Cave trolls have weapons do they not?

Anyway I don't want derail the thread by starting a debate whether things with opposable thumbs can carry and use weapons to further their reach in battle.

JamesR wrote:

That was my thought as well. He doesn't have hand weapons, because he doesn't need them. He's a monster, strength 5 is plenty

So we agree that although S5 isn't as powerful as S6, but as you yourself said JamesR, S5 should suffice in killing things.
So even w/o using special strikes we agree that The dweller has more advantages than cave trolls for a lower point value?

What you get with cave troll is a smaller base higher strength and ability to throw lousy accuracy powerful boulders at short range, other than those attributes, the cave troll is an utterly inferior choice in terms of meta.

JamesR · **Posted:** Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:01 pm

Oh I totally agree the dweller is FAR better. That regen with rend it's almost (if not) broken

Grungehog · **Posted:** Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:34 am

I love the theme with Dwellers, I get to represent how I see the first ages dark forces, with demons of fire surrounded by goblins causing massacre on the world of men and elves

Valadorn · **Posted:** Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:47 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

You can't give Dwellers in the Dark weapons - it would be like giving axes to giant spiders. Creatures are not meant to have hand weapons. If you want a boost to strength - use rend, don't cheat.

You cant give em weapon officially cause there is no weapon on miniature's entry in the book. But guys the difference between S5 and S6 is not that much becasue you are going to throw 3 dices for that

Knife in the Dark · **Posted:** Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:20 pm

Valadorn wrote:

You cant give em weapon officially cause there is no weapon on miniature's entry in the book. But guys the difference between S5 and S6 is not that much becasue you are going to throw 3 dices for that

If memory serves me right, not that I think the Dweller should have a weapon or not have one, all models are considered armed with a hand weapon if they don't have one in there entry unless, otherwise says unarmed.

Been a while since I read that part of the rulebook but that's what I'm recalling when I think about it. I'll have a look sometime later though to double check.

JamesR · **Posted:** Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:32 pm

@Knife you're correct but some models, such as Wargs, Spiders, dwellers etc have their claws, fangs and the like, not swords etc

Knife in the Dark · **Posted:** Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:51 pm

JamesR wrote:

@Knife you're correct but some models, such as Wargs, Spiders, dwellers etc have their claws, fangs and the like, not swords etc

I agree, while I would never assume a warg could be equipped with a ax, does it specify that the dweller is armed with claws are not? I mean in a sense it makes it kinda confusing what can hold a weapon and what can't. I mean both the Cave trolls stand up and so does the dweller in his model so when they both stand up why should one be able to hold a hand weapon and the other not be able to. It's kinda of hard to determine the line between them.

Oh rules wordings, how hard they can be to decipher. :roll:

Valadorn · **Posted:** Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:56 pm

Knife in the Dark wrote:

Valadorn wrote:

You cant give em weapon officially cause there is no weapon on miniature's entry in the book. But guys the difference between S5 and S6 is not that much becasue you are going to throw 3 dices for that

If memory serves me right, not that I think the Dweller should have a weapon or not have one, all models are considered armed with a hand weapon if they don't have one in there entry unless, otherwise says unarmed.

Been a while since I read that part of the rulebook but that's what I'm recalling when I think about it. I'll have a look sometime later though to double check.

Yeah exactly but I am claiming that except one handed wep (whatever it is sword claw or even a banana) a weapon with special effect like on giving +1S as our friend calls in this conversation needs to be said in the miniature's entry in the book. Just misunderstanding np.

JamesR · **Posted:** Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:02 pm

Ok but look at the model as sculpted. This model was released pre- special strikes so there was no need to specify. Also look at intent, Dr Grant, and myself had a long tirade against rule -abuse of finding loop- holes in the rules. This is an instance of that vulnerability

Galanur · **Joined:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:28 am **Posts:** 1389

I do like more the troll as visual appeal but a troll got 1 role, the dweller got another...

As a full run time the dweller compensates more cause your oponent can´t feed 1 warrior at a time for a thing that moves bit faster than normal. Also means he can move and hide through terrain more often. Also its a thing that resist magic and likely the last model you gonna see running of the field...keep in mind that if I beleive the rend give him wounds :)
as FAQ says: "Dweller in the Dark, Murderous Power.
At the end of the paragraph, add the following sentence:
ʻRend is the only Brutal Power Attack that enables a
Dweller in the Dark to regain a wound in this manner"

Also the hurled model takes a S6 hit in the end anyway (+1 S3 for each thing he get hit by) which is actually is a benefit from S5 model to a S6 hit...

The cave troll is slower but hes slightly more resistant to bow shoot and a bit more brute Strength ideal to spearhead an assault to open holes in your enemy line, he also can throw stones which is not that bad...

Dweller in the dark vs Cave troll

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