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Special Strike Modifications
https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27636		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  VandalCabbage [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Special Strike Modifications
This seems to be a point of contention on the official Rules Questions board so I thought I would try and make them more lifelike.

Feint (Sword/Dagger) - This model re-rolls 1s to wound if his fight value is more than 1 above his opponent. (e.g. Fight 4 v.s. Fight 2). For two-handed swords this increases to 1s or 2s.

Bash (Hammer/Mace) - This model ignores shields when taking into account enemy defense.

Piercing Strike (Axes/Picks) If this model's added fight and strength are more than the enemies added fight and defense, this model gains +1 to his strength.

Whirl (Whips/Flails) - This model may choose to whirl at the start of a combat, gaining +1to win the fight but loosing -1 to his to wound roll.

Just a few thoughts. Not too confident about the ones other than feint, so just wondering what you guys thought.
Author:  whafrog [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Special Strike Modifications
Except for whips, there doesn't seem to be a downside to using these, which means they are essentially free upgrades to the models that have them. Elves will get a lot out of feint but with no penalty or increase in point cost.
Author:  VandalCabbage [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Special Strike Modifications
That was the point, I was trying to decrease rolling since a lot of people complained about the game getting bogged down.
Author:  whafrog [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Special Strike Modifications
But there still needs to be a downside for each, otherwise you've just given elves the Harad poison blades special rule for no extra cost, while everyone else with a sword can't really use it...except maybe Numenor vs goblins, or Uruk hai vs hobbits.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Special Strike Modifications
Yeah there has to be a downside, the clever part is in removing the extra rolls as that's what seems to bother most people (not me incidentally, as I've said elsewhere I think they sound like they will slow the game down more than they actually do).

I'd go for something like:

Feinting: As it currently is but you can only do it if your Fight value is equal to or higher than that if your opponent (so there is always a risk and goblins don't get poison for free).

Piercing Strike: +2 strength if you win, -2 defence if you lose (it could also work with +1 or +3 but I think +2 is a sweet spot where it will probably increase your chances of wounding and increase your chances of being wounded)

I don't feel particularly strongly about the other ones but I think a similar system of disadvantage and advantage that didn't involve rolling any dice to determine the nature of the buff/penalty would be welcomed by most.
Author:  VandalCabbage [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Special Strike Modifications
But everybody I heard complained about how it would be unrealistic for a lower fight value warrior to be able to feint. Fienting at a lower fight value, piercing strike at a low defense - these also have no downside. Besides, Elves are paying for it - they're paying for points of fight value they cannot use. Perhaps this would be better for goblins and suchlike:

Daggers : Overpower: If the enemy model is trapped, re-roll all to wound rolls of 1.

Besides, the rules have only a small impact on the game, so I was aiming for something that eliminated rolling. It becomes a matter of what that warrior would legitimately be able to do. You don't just switch from "generic hand weapon" to "axe" when you feel like it. Having an axe defines your combat style.

Whafrog, you yourself posted something about how higher defense rarely matters since the to wound chart is in stages. This way, by shaking up the stats, every point of defense and strength matters. Besides, these strikes are available to everyone, so no one really benefits more than anyone else.
Author:  JamesR [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Special Strike Modifications
You are correct that having an axe vs a sword etc defines your combat style but the "special strikes" I've always seen as pushing that to the edge. With an axe I've seen it more as the warrior taking a bigger swing and really stepping into his strike, as such leaving himself vulnerable should he lose combat. Other weapons I picture much of the same thing. I do agree some aspects of weapon specials are bad but I think it's more complicated than a minor edit will fix, it goes more into the core mechanics and how everything is treated the same until now
Author:  VandalCabbage [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Special Strike Modifications
Sigh, I guess I bit off more then I could chew. I still think swords should benefit high-end models and daggers low-end models, but really I have no idea of where to start.
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Special Strike Modifications
VandalCabbage wrote:
But everybody I heard complained about how it would be unrealistic for a lower fight value warrior to be able to feint. Fienting at a lower fight value, piercing strike at a low defense - these also have no downside.


Right...one reason why I don't like or use them. I'm just saying your solution doesn't have any downside either, so it doesn't solve a problem, it creates a new one.

VandalCabbage wrote:
Whafrog, you yourself posted something about how higher defense rarely matters since the to wound chart is in stages. This way, by shaking up the stats, every point of defense and strength matters. Besides, these strikes are available to everyone, so no one really benefits more than anyone else.


Sorry, not following what the wound chart stages have to do with this.

VandalCabbage wrote:
Sigh, I guess I bit off more then I could chew. I still think swords should benefit high-end models and daggers low-end models, but really I have no idea of where to start.


Ah, don't despair, you might hit gold yet :) This game is terribly difficult to tweak. You only have 6 pips to work with, the wound chart is staged, fight score is only a tie-breaker and not relative, a model's equipment restrictions informs a part of its point cost, courage has a fuzzy value, and everything you change has a ripple effect. And yet somehow the whole thing works really well, for the most part. It's not a surprise that even GW couldn't make special strikes work right.
Author:  Walters [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Special Strike Modifications
A further suggestion, trying to keep things as simple as possible (but no simpler).

1. All special strikes have the same penalty to the model making the
special attack. -2 Defence.
From a flavour point of view this represents the extra effort put into
the attack leaving the attacker vulnerable. As indicated by James above.

2. Feint (Sword only). When rolling on the wound table the attacker uses
Fight instead of Strength to determine which row to use.

3. Piercing Strike. Attacker gains +1 to wound against armoured or heavily
armoured enemies. This would be cumulative with 2H weapons.

4. Bash. The defender is knocked prone. Can only be used by models on
foot and against models with the same base size or smaller.
Really not sure about this one - I am most bothered it may be overpowered. If bashing with a 2 handed weapon there should be an advantage.

5. Stun. I don't think a club or staff should have a special strike.

6. Whirl. Attacker gets a single strike against all models in base contact.
I don't know if there are enough models with this type of weapon to make it significant.

I don't think there are any additional dice rolls required by these ideas.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Special Strike Modifications
So what is the downside to your modified feint? Cos a hero who has heroic striked to FV10 faces no penalty for feinting yet will probably wound on 3's.
Author:  VandalCabbage [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Special Strike Modifications
The minus 2 defence that he pointed out.
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