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Cavalry army at hold ground
https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27966		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Thermo [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Cavalry army at hold ground
Calling all SBG pals!

Looking for some advice on the best way to take on the hold ground scenario with my all cavalry army, which performs well at many things, but not this scenario! I've got good records in to the death, domination and lords of battle, and mixed in high ground and reconnoitre, but this one continues to stump me.

Pros of course are that you can get to the objective before your opponent, or if their maelstrom'd forces start on different parts of the board, you can focus on eliminating parts of their army piecemeal.

But with the average 500 points army being around 30 models, even if you wipe out half their army and kill the general, during that time, the other half should be reaching the objective and on a 1-2 the game can end, when someone is broken.

Or you take the objective but lose many of the advantages of cavalry, which is manoeuvrability. With the game ending on a 1-2 after 50%, again, this is a tough one.

Any musings or advice from team one ring and fellow tournament attendees?
Author:  Dr Grant [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry army at hold ground
It's really tough, I'd actually assume you'd have the same problem with The High Ground as it's essentially the same scenario with different deployment.

The main issue with these two scenarios for small armies (I was in the same boat with my all hero force) is that you can be fairly confident of breaking the enemy first (reducing them to 14 models in your example) but then you're utterly dependent on the game not ending for several turns to have any chance of winning.

I really don't like any game that ends randomly as it skews the odds quite considerably towards one force. This happens a lot in some of the Journeybook scenarios. As memory serves, the Warg Attack one in the Fellowship book can end on a random roll from turn 10 onwards. If it ends on turn 10 the wargs don't have a chance, if it ends on turn 20 the odds tip considerably towards the Wargs, the game should be 'ends on turn 15' or something, whichever turn has been play-tested to be the fairest for both sides. It's the same for the Points Match scenarios, the ending at 25% ruling is far fairer and balanced, I would be quite happy to play all 6 scenarios like that.

However, them's just my feelings, as for how you can win, I really don't know, I actually had a lot of success at this scenario at 1000 points with a mixed Rohan infantry and cavalry list. I used heroic march to get to the object first and form my cavalry in a ring around the objective about 7 inches away. The large base size of these models blocked the enemies advance whilst my 24 Helmingas strolled in and sat on the objective, over the course of the game most of my cavalry were killed but they often blocked the enemy and did enough damage to mean that the surviving Helminga numbers often carried the game. These tactics could obviously be scaled down for 500 points. I know that doesn't suit your all cav army but I still think it would be a good idea to rush the objective first and form a defensive ring (which you're bound to be able to do with your large movement), that way, when you lose fights you're pushed closer to the objective rather than further away. Sure you lost your manoeuvrability but you're still as likely as the enemy to get the charge (50/50 Priority/Heroic Move roll-off) and your large base size will make it incredibly difficult for the enemy to get models onto the objective (or to swarm/trap you for that matter). In that way you actually turn your problem into your advantage. Put yourself on the objective, get broken and you'll win if the dreaded 1 or 2 comes up.

If you don't like that idea, the other key thing I've found when you're playing Hold Ground against a numerically superior army is to come as close to breaking the enemy as possible without breaking them in one turn. So, say you begin turn 6, 4 models from breaking the enemy, I would do everything in my power to only kill 3 (if you're charging don't throw spears, bash where possible, shield where possible) so that the turn ends with the enemy's army one model away from breaking. In turn 7 go all out and try and kill as many as you can in the one turn. The enemy will be broken at the start of turn 8 and then you get another full turn of combat before the game could end. What you don't want (in the example above) is to kill 4 models in turn 6 as you then only get one more turn of fighting to reduce their numbers before the game could end. Don't get me wrong it's tricky to pull off but it makes a huge difference.

Obviously, once they're broken, you should do everything in your power to charge their captains so there's no stand-fasts and they all leg it.

Finally, the most important pice of advice - don't roll a 1 or a 2 :-)
Author:  Gondorian Captain [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry army at hold ground
I certainly agree with Dr. Grant there, a cavalry force should make sure that the battle is fought anywhere except the objective.

Perhaps leave your outriders and a couple of riders on the objective while taking on the enemy in pieces. Aim to break the enemy, but if you cannot make damn sure that you will be broken before the enemy can slip through your net of cavalry.
It's certainly a tough one but the random deployment should go a long way to helping. Additionally, don't be afraid to burn might from the off.
If your warbands get deployed by your opponent it can often put them in a really poor position, a might point spent here can make sure you get them right where they need to be from the get go.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry army at hold ground
500 points is a really tricky spot for every army in the game, you don't have the points to employ everything you want to without sacrificing numbers; so most forces at 500pts end up being the 'core' force without any of the game changing flashy bits on the side.

With cavalry you have the speed advantage, so if your opponent does a classic 'hold ground' and places your warbands behind theirs (so they can smash them), you can work out how many more models you need to send over to that half of the board to be massacred so that you will break, and then put everything else on the objective. RoR have lots of bows so holding the hill shouldn't be impossible if the game just doesn't end.

Also, you can safely deploy enemy warbands in the 'classic' way and not have to worry about them doing what I just described to you - you can ride around whatever extra they send to tie you up.

Good luck J-Tight! What are you planning on adding to make 750?
Author:  JamesR [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry army at hold ground
Gondorian Captain had the same idea I did. Leave some ranged support on the hill and smash the enemy with your other cavalry, and of course remember if your opponent manages to get too close you can still defend the objective easily enough with the riders that you left to hold it
Author:  cereal_theif [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry army at hold ground
As someone who smashes all cav at hold ground on a regular basis I would like to offer the other side of the coin.

What I want to see as an elite force player (high elves, wood elves, dwarves)
1) ALL your big hitters coming at us early on.
2) Bows shooting at our back line
3) Your General coming at us early on

So I would say split your army into thirds in your mind.

First third half a few big hitter (sons of Eorl) with weaker units like redshields/outriders
second third, most of the rest of the big hitters with red shields. Minor heroes
final third, your general (who gives away vps) and high courage anythings (royal guard?).

First third should engage ASAP. When your opponent looks like he is to break through your line or you are crushing people hard then you hit with the 2nd third.
Now either you have lost your first third or you are winning.

If your first third is almost gone then committing your second third creates an illusion that you are paniced and worried about losing. But sometimes dying is winning. Sometimes buying time is more important than killing men.

If you can contain your opponent to within 12 of the edge of the table then all is well. You break and you have two turns at least before they reach the centre because they still have a good portion of your army to deal with.

You can then send it Royal guard as and when to fill in the gaps and buy more time.
Your general can go in if your opponent has priority, and then heroic combat out again.

This tactics makes your opponent have to think, does he heroic combat and press forward towards the second line early on... or does he deal with the first line before advancing. The more might he uses early on the less you have to worry about with your minor heroes. He doesnt want the game to end so he may shield. So you charge models without shields and those with shields at hte same time, thus he has to strike.

Alternatively, commit all but 2 outriders and use might for heroic moves. But if I win the dice off heroic.... well it isnt good for you.

After Breaking
Percentage odds of the game ending
on the 1st roll - 33%
on or before the 2nd - 55%
on or before the 3rd - 70%
on or before the 4th - 80%
on or before the 5th - 86%
Author:  cereal_theif [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry army at hold ground
Obviously this is me speaking as if your opponent has managed to get his army together into one blob... a fairly safe assumption.

vs hordes. Just kill them and have fun.
Author:  Erestar [ Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry army at hold ground
Dr Grant wrote:
It's really tough, I'd actually assume you'd have the same problem with The High Ground as it's essentially the same scenario with different deployment.

The main issue with these two scenarios for small armies (I was in the same boat with my all hero force) is that you can be fairly confident of breaking the enemy first (reducing them to 14 models in your example) but then you're utterly dependent on the game not ending for several turns to have any chance of winning.

I really don't like any game that ends randomly as it skews the odds quite considerably towards one force. This happens a lot in some of the Journeybook scenarios. As memory serves, the Warg Attack one in the Fellowship book can end on a random roll from turn 10 onwards. If it ends on turn 10 the wargs don't have a chance, if it ends on turn 20 the odds tip considerably towards the Wargs, the game should be 'ends on turn 15' or something, whichever turn has been play-tested to be the fairest for both sides. It's the same for the Points Match scenarios, the ending at 25% ruling is far fairer and balanced, I would be quite happy to play all 6 scenarios like that.

However, them's just my feelings, as for how you can win, I really don't know, I actually had a lot of success at this scenario at 1000 points with a mixed Rohan infantry and cavalry list. I used heroic march to get to the object first and form my cavalry in a ring around the objective about 7 inches away. The large base size of these models blocked the enemies advance whilst my 24 Helmingas strolled in and sat on the objective, over the course of the game most of my cavalry were killed but they often blocked the enemy and did enough damage to mean that the surviving Helminga numbers often carried the game. These tactics could obviously be scaled down for 500 points. I know that doesn't suit your all cav army but I still think it would be a good idea to rush the objective first and form a defensive ring (which you're bound to be able to do with your large movement), that way, when you lose fights you're pushed closer to the objective rather than further away. Sure you lost your manoeuvrability but you're still as likely as the enemy to get the charge (50/50 Priority/Heroic Move roll-off) and your large base size will make it incredibly difficult for the enemy to get models onto the objective (or to swarm/trap you for that matter). In that way you actually turn your problem into your advantage. Put yourself on the objective, get broken and you'll win if the dreaded 1 or 2 comes up.

If you don't like that idea, the other key thing I've found when you're playing Hold Ground against a numerically superior army is to come as close to breaking the enemy as possible without breaking them in one turn. So, say you begin turn 6, 4 models from breaking the enemy, I would do everything in my power to only kill 3 (if you're charging don't throw spears, bash where possible, shield where possible) so that the turn ends with the enemy's army one model away from breaking. In turn 7 go all out and try and kill as many as you can in the one turn. The enemy will be broken at the start of turn 8 and then you get another full turn of combat before the game could end. What you don't want (in the example above) is to kill 4 models in turn 6 as you then only get one more turn of fighting to reduce their numbers before the game could end. Don't get me wrong it's tricky to pull off but it makes a huge difference.

Obviously, once they're broken, you should do everything in your power to charge their captains so there's no stand-fasts and they all leg it.

Finally, the most important pice of advice - don't roll a 1 or a 2 :-)


That's....a pretty good idea actually. I'll have to try that. Thanks Dr.
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