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Gandalf Too Weak?
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Author:  TDrik [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Gandalf Too Weak?
Gandalf has some great spells, but does anyone else feel like his Attack value is a little too low?

I know it must be hard to scale all the characters and he wouldn't be as good as Legolas or Gimli in melee, but 1 attack seems a bit low. An orc could quite easily best him in a fight which seems a bit wrong for me.

Does anyone else agree?
Author:  rok100 [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
To be more like the Gandalf the Grey of the books and films, I agree that he should be better in combat, but at the same time, he shouldn’t have all those ‘great spells’. I figure that the stuff he goes through during the War of the Ring is about as tough as anything he has ever come up against in Middle Earth, so he’ll have used pretty much every spell he knows (that’s of any use in combat). There were so many times when Command, Immobilise or Sorcerous Blast would have been really useful and he didn’t use them, so he clearly didn’t have such powers at his disposal.

Spells he could legitimately have:

- cast light (not blinding light, just illuminate a surrounding area of darkness)
- Seal / unseal door (probably scenario specific)
- Terrifying aura
- Spread fire (only when source of flame and fuel are at hand)
- Sorcerous blast – since this is only used against Saruman, and only in the films, I reckon he can only use it against another of the Maiar, or possibly against spirits. (Like a swift knee in the old midichlorians).

Additionally as Gandalf the White:

- Blinding Light (a courage-test-causing ray of light, as seen on the Pelennor against the fell beasts)
- Break Weapon (cause weapon to burn hotly or break, as used against Saruman and the three hunters)
- Magic Shield (duration spell; deflect missile weapons on say 3+, as used against Legolas)

I haven’t play-tested any of this, but I do mean to in time.
Author:  TDrik [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
Really good points there.

Would you probably increase his attacks?
Author:  Joe5mc [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
He doesn't fight hand-to-hand much as the Grey (or at least we don't tend to see it). In the movies he does mess up some Orcs as Gandalf the White.

In the Hobbit (book) he does use a spell to vaporize a couple of Goblins and escape when the Dwarves are being pulled through the crack.
Author:  Sithious [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
Don't forget when he got to Goblin Town he knocked every goblin in the area to the ground with a blast of force and light combined.

Split rocks at the bridge in FOTR and at the trolls in AUJ.

Can send messages via moths to call allies such as Eagles

can make pine cones into flaming throwing weapons that can be used by others.

Can defeat illusions such as Dol Guldor.

Can fight off 5 wraiths (FOTR) should have fight stats equal to Aragorn, yeah you heard me.

Call lightning and infuse his weapons with it's power, withstand fire attacks, reveal moon runes.
I think in the fight with Saruman they were using a form of telekinetic powers to try to control the other person (not just blast them) but to grab, hold and throttle the person into submission. They were old friends, so I think they were not shooting violent spells at each other, just vying for control as both wanted the other to submit.
Author:  TDrik [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
Sithious wrote:

Can fight off 5 wraiths (FOTR) should have fight stats equal to Aragorn, yeah you heard me.



I really agree with you. He should be way closer to Aragorn. Maybe not the same, but a lot closer.

I'm going to try and find an altered profile online.
Author:  rok100 [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
Some great examples from Sithious of other spells that Gandalf uses, although many of those I think would likely be scenario-specific spells rather than ones suitable for use at any time. This is the Harness Lightning spell I had in mind:

Harness Lightning – Range unlimited, but target has to be in line of sight, and highest point on board (e.g. top of mountain, Gandalf’s sword held aloft). If caster is target, their weapon counts as having strength 10 for the rest of the round, but at the end of the round, they take one strength 10 hit themselves. If target is a piece of scenery (e.g. a tower), the scenery takes one strength 10 hit. Target cannot be another warrior.

Personally, I find it hard to reconcile some of the things we see in the Hobbit movies with the LOTR films, and so I always favour the latter. If Gandalf was able to blast so many Goblins to the floor in Goblin Town, why didn’t he do the same thing in Moria, or at the sieges of Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith? I don’t remember him vapourising goblins in the Hobbit, but it’s a few years since I last read it, so I shall have to look that up.

Re: the original poster’s question, I would have no hesitation in giving Gandalf the White 2 attacks; I’m not sure about Gandalf the Grey – maybe. To balance the Fellowship, I think Legolas would need a close combat boost by giving him the Blade Master skill, but that is taking this a bit off-topic.
Author:  JamesR [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
So realistically he should have all the spells he already possess. I really disagree with some of these lists and the given reasons why he did or didn't use such spells.

Command/Immobilized is shown when he frees Theoden, I believe.
He should have the "bubble of light" used against Sauron and the Balrog

Sorcerers Blast does only appear against Saruman, that's not reason enough to believe it's that limited.
Word of Power is what he uses at Goblin town to cause the shockwaves/explosion.

To say "oh he doesn't cast these spells all the time means he can't" is logically fallacious.
I don't know why Gandalf doesn't cast magic more often, what I do know is magic in ME is unlike any other film/book's magic. It's not super flashy and used like it's the Force, it's subtle and far more woven into their world and I think the profile shows that pretty well.
To remove any of his game-spells would be to reduce Gandalf to "a conjurer of cheap tricks", which he's not :-)

As to the extra attacks, I too agree that he should have 2
Author:  emre43 [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
Gandalf does indeed 'vaporise' those Goblins in the book version of the Hobbit.
Author:  Valadorn [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
Nice thread!
I have thought many times of this and been A2 is a very realistic improvement to the game. I would not say he should had weaker spells but fewer. Maybe 4 +1 per round via staff of power.
Author:  Sithious [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
I think that Gandalf only used his powers when there was not other options. He doesn't go throwing around his power lightly. Also in his research he also picked up many tricks (fireworks, putting the sun at his back, seaming larger/more imposing when talking in need). There probably are limits to how much he can expel at one time (I think the Balrog battle took all his reserves). So I like the will points keeping him in check, I like the idea of adding more will to make a power more potent (better chance to be successful) thus he runs out sooner. I think he needs better fight stats for sure, grey and white versions.

I have always wondered why in campaigns the heroes don't get M/W/F points back... I would think that just like in the books, there is time between events to rest and eat and be back to full. but that is another topic altogether but it occurred to me thinking of the might stores here.
Author:  Joe5mc [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
By the time of The Lord of the Rings, Gandalf is trying to avoid using his 'magic' as he says that it basically creates a large, glowing 'Gandalf is here', sign. He doesn't blast the Moria goblins because he doesn't want to draw even more attention. By the time the Balrog shows up...well, how much worse can it get?

In the Hobbit, he might have felt safe to blast a few goblins underground, but once he came out the other side of the Misty Mountains (much closer to Dol Guldur), he might have been more reluctant to use his 'big guns'.

Although he did fight off five ringwraiths, I don't think it is meant to imply he did so in hand-to-hand combat. Since at that point the minions of the Dark Lord knew exactly where he was, he probably felt free to let rip...
Author:  Seren Nishiyama [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
I believe Sithious has struck closest to the truth in terms of the original lore.
Gandalf is an creature of vast and potentially terrible power, basically a divine spirit made flesh. He is limited in what he can "cast" (if that is even the right term given the mythos) by what challenge he is facing and quite frankly, by how closely others of the free peoples are watching/paying attention.
Even when in mortal danger of being ripped to shreds by wargs, the best he can manage is a few flaming pine cones. When no other mortal eyes are upon him however, he can open up a 55-gallon barrel of butt-whipping on the Balrog.
The reason his magic seems unreliable to the free peoples is EXACTLY the point. If the free peoples saw Mithrandir as the amazingly powerful divine being he really was instead of the doddering old man he pretended to be they would grow too dependent on him to face threats on their own.
Or maybe Gandalf can only use so much of his power at a time without popping his old-man guise like an over-inflated balloon, hence the WIL limit. ;)
Author:  Frêrin [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
You also have to mention that the five ringwraith were weakend in this situation, because Sauron himself wasnt allready that strong and they were really far away. Even the setting could have weakend them because it was the place, were the two armies met, which defeated there master.

Besides I dont think Gandalf powers defeated the goblins in the Hobbit, but the light itself and the suprise.

I'd wish his powers could be a little more cryptically, but its a game we are playing and the easier the rules, the better the game ;)
Author:  turwaitheon [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
JamesR wrote:
Command/Immobilized is shown when he frees Theoden, I believe.
He should have the "bubble of light" used against Sauron and the Balrog


Wouldn't that bubble of light be the ''Banishment'' magical power?
Author:  rok100 [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
This has turned into a very interesting thread with lots of ideas to explain the magic that we see (or more importantly, don’t see). I especially like Joe5mc’s point on Gandalf limiting his use of magic to avoid unwanted attention. That would certainly explain the Chamber of Mazarbul (Balin’s Tomb). However, if that’s an important factor in the story, I think it should be represented in the game, so the player feels the same pressure. For example, Gandalf using his magic against the Cave Troll in that scenario could risk reducing the time it takes for the Balrog to arrive at the Bridge of Khazad Dum. For other scenarios on the open road, the scenario might not let him use his magic at all (or only the most inconspicuous powers).

I think the implication was that the five ringwraiths were fought off at Weathertop by fire (as seen by Aragorn in the distance), not necessarily by close combat. Much of Gandalf’s magic seemed to be about enhancing what was already there – making something glow more brightly, a door seal more tightly or wood burn faster.

By the way, I didn’t mean to cast doubt on whether the goblins were vaporised in the Hobbit – just that I didn’t recall it and will have to look up how it was described so I can work out if and how I would incorporate it into any rules I use for Gandalf’s magic.
Author:  TDrik [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
His magic is definitely subtle and completely different to other similar characters in fantasy and sci-fi. I think it's good then that he has the ability to use a lot of spells that you wouldn't normally see from him in regular skirmish situations because the rules make them more difficult to use.

E.G. Sorcerous blast. Would he really use that in a small skirmish? Probably not, but whenever I try and use it it always fails the dice roll. It's annoying, but it keeps it more towards the character lore. Then if I really needed to use a powerful spell I could use a lot more Will and ensure it, but it would obviously tire him out. Spells not working is frustrating but it makes sense I guess.

I just think his attack is too low. My friend and I are doing a campaign at the moment. In Moria there were so many times Gandalf was fighting goblins and just couldn't win because of his 1 attack roll. It was SO frustrating. How could Gandalf have so much trouble killing a single goblin?

I think GW should revisit his profile. Is there any form of petition for this? Wishful thinking, I know.
Author:  Galanur [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
movie like he shows way more resilience and warlike type than any other wizard both melee and spells

I would suggest giving him.

glamdring additionally gives him +1A to his profile

Additional spells:

Shield of Anor: range: 2" Dice Score: 2+
Everytime the caster or any friendly model is wounded while within this protective shield
it will remove 1 will point per wound suffered of the caster´s will pool, if the caster rans
out of will, the shield will disappear. While the shield stands, the caster cannot move,
enemy models cannot go inside the shield area, friendly models cannot fight inside the shield.
If the shield is casted with enemy models less than 2" away of the caster, the shield will push
them away the minimum requirement (this may allow enemy models to fall off cliffs
or move into terrain pieces).

Mighty Blast: range 12" Dice Score: 5+ (can only be used once per game)
All enemy models within this blast range will get knock out and suffer a S3 hit.
channelled: enemy models will be knock out and pushed 3" away from the caster and suffer S5 hit.

Reveal: range: 18" Dice Score: 6+
Enemy models with elven cloaks will lose their effect for the rest of the game

Banishment: (rulebook)


What you think?
Author:  Seren Nishiyama [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
I like it Galanur. Very thematic and well thought out.

I would make a suggestion that the "spells" available to Gandalf be directly related and proportional to the threat the forces of good are facing.
Standard list of spells or weak spells for normal threats/troops.
Strong spells if there are enemy magic users or ringwraiths on the table.
Mighty spells if there is a Maia (Balrog/Sauron) or a Dragon on the table.
Author:  JamesR [ Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gandalf Too Weak?
Seren Nishiyama wrote:
I like it Galanur. Very thematic and well thought out.

I , would make a suggestion that the "spells" available to Gandalf be directly related and proportional to the threat the forces of good are facing.
Standard list of spells or weak spells for normal threats/troops.
Strong spells if there are enemy magic users or ringwraiths on the table.
Mighty spells if there is a Maia (Balrog/Sauron) or a Dragon on the table.


While thematically that's all well and good there's problems with variable stats.
1 your model is only sometimes worth his points
2 it is over -complicating something that has been streamlined for ease of use.
3 we're not certain as to all the limitations or lack there of Gandalf actually has
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