Also I will look into getting a shadow lord. I am also looking into getting the updated rules. Dose the book that comes with the goblin town set give you the rules I heard it leaves out some of the profiles but im mainly interested in the rules.
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| takeing on a army with a huge group of archers https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30406 |
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| Author: | AlatartheRed [ Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
I play against a friend who has about 40 units all equipped with bow however I only have about six. I have heavy armored units but I still lose tons of units because of him more or less hanging to the edge of the table and not changing. That makes me have to charge across the board taking about five or six shoot phases worth of arrows. we play with terrain. Is there an effective strategy for dealing with this type of army. |
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| Author: | legion [ Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
The Hobbit rules pretty much make it very difficult for an opponent to hang back and shoot like that. Are you playing by old rules? If not, then just start halfway up the board, and two Heroic Marches max will close the distance. The opponent well also have to roll to deploy so far back. Even if he gets all his formations at the edge, he will only get two sets of shots off with that. That is alot less that 6 shooting turns your describing If that is still too many shots to work with, then take the shadow lord, new galadriel or some other blinding light character. If not available for points, then take a drum to speed up your movement or cheap characters like Damrod for cheap Heroic Marches. It ultimately depends on what races your playing. If your playing by old rules, then your really in trouble. Without blinding light, it is really impossible to win since you have to travel so far and so slowly. This is why Crossbow spam, wood elf spam and Hobbit spam won so many tournaments at that time. |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
If you're playing with the correct bow-limits, which have always been only 1/3 of your troops may carry bows (there are exceptions but lets not discuss that here as it only complicates things for beginners), then you're playing a truly massive battle. As mentioned above the Hobbit (tourney) rules typically have you too close for that kind of sit back strategy. However if you are playing this way simply use terrain to cause shots to have "in-the-way" rolls to help keep your troops alive, every battle field should be heavily covered in terrain which will help this |
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| Author: | AlatartheRed [ Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
Actually I am playing by the old LOTR SBG Rules Manuel and my friend plays rohan. a lot of thee shots are from riders that can carry bows as well as other equipment. Would these count towards the one third. |
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| Author: | Coenus Scaldingus [ Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
Riders of Rohan can indeed all be armed with bows, not counting towards the bow limit. That being said, even with 100% bows, it must be a good few hundred points to field 40 of 'em. What is your army, and why does it only have 6 archers? |
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| Author: | AlatartheRed [ Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
the guy I play against has about 24 riders of rohan 32 warriors of rohan 12 of witch are archers Eomer and Aragorn. Besides that when we do larger point battles he uses 8 numenorians 15 elves with 8 archers and seven elven blades and men of minas tirith which include 4 archers and 8 other units. I know its a little out of theme but it works. I have a insenguard/mordor army with a balrog for when I play in larger point battles. The reason I don't have archers is that I cant find many online and the one time I did they sent me 24 swordsmen instead of archers. Im still looking but in the meantime there's not much I can do. |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
The Balrog is terrible so that's part of your problem lol |
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| Author: | legion [ Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
Monsters are near worthless in the older rules. That Balrog is a massive point sink in your army. He will never make his points back. Your better off trading him for a shadow lord on Fell Beast. That will help against all the archery. Unfortunately archer was a major problem in the older rules which is why they were changed so much for the Hobbit. Back when they were the main rules, almost every army had the Shadow Lord since there wasn't really that many ways to survive against that much bow fire. I recommend you do the same. |
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| Author: | AlatartheRed [ Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
I don't however use the balrog very much only in matches were I don't have enough points to match my friends army. Actually I've only used him in three battles 400 gondor points against and the same against rohan and in a full scale battle and he didn't pull his weight. However I like being able to apply him to my army when I want to do an especially big battle. |
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| Author: | AlatartheRed [ Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
Also I will look into getting a shadow lord. I am also looking into getting the updated rules. Dose the book that comes with the goblin town set give you the rules I heard it leaves out some of the profiles but im mainly interested in the rules.
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| Author: | LordoftheBrownRing [ Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
This is why playing by the old rules sucked. Idk why your friend in a friendly game would do this...... Take the Shadow Lord on fell beast if possible, all defense 6 troops. If you take Isengard take X bows and light him up with them. Bring some warg riders to close the lines quicker. But mainly, quit the old rules and tell your friend to stop playing like that. I cant imagine a friend of mine playing that way. |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
I bring balanced forces as I do prefer the old deployment rules myself. I hate the whole Napoleonic's of the modern deployment, it permeates all of GW's games and has no place in a skirmish game IMO. Whenever people complain about opponents sitting back and shooting I just shake my head, it's not a tactic I use but I don't begrudge an opponent of a viable option. If you (whomever is crying about it) can't figure out how to counter than you don't deserve to win. Back to the OP's post lol Understand your opponent will be doing this, but because he is he's limiting his options. You do need some bows to fight back, it's as simple as that. But you should also use terrain and screens of weaker units to get you in close. Break up your army into groups that can hop from hiding place to hiding place to avoid archery fire. Build your army with expendable units like Orcs led by a shaman with fury and keep them between your stronger troops and the archers. Plan on every single screening unit dying so if any do make it into combat it's just a bonus for you |
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| Author: | AlatartheRed [ Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
Thanks for the tips I believe the reason he holds back is because I have uruk hi warriors and they tear through his line easily. I have a little over thirty orc warriors so ill try the meat shield tactic with them. Also can you concentrate volleys on horse back my rulebook inset clear on that. |
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| Author: | LordoftheBrownRing [ Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
JamesR wrote: I bring balanced forces as I do prefer the old deployment rules myself. I hate the whole Napoleonic's of the modern deployment, it permeates all of GW's games and has no place in a skirmish game IMO. Whenever people complain about opponents sitting back and shooting I just shake my head, it's not a tactic I use but I don't begrudge an opponent of a viable option. If you (whomever is crying about it) can't figure out how to counter than you don't deserve to win. Back to the OP's post lol Understand your opponent will be doing this, but because he is he's limiting his options. You do need some bows to fight back, it's as simple as that. But you should also use terrain and screens of weaker units to get you in close. Break up your army into groups that can hop from hiding place to hiding place to avoid archery fire. Build your army with expendable units like Orcs led by a shaman with fury and keep them between your stronger troops and the archers. Plan on every single screening unit dying so if any do make it into combat it's just a bonus for you Why do you shake your head? They switched the rules for a reason. That type of game is extremely boring. Youre smart enough with your army choices that it wouldnt often affect you, but if someone plays a lower D force, the game is an absolute waste of time. Yeah, maybe you shouldnt have to roll and maybe end up SO close, but the warbands system with a leader per 12 troops, and all else is vastly superior for balance. Not opinion wise mind you-like.....which is more fun for you. It may not be, but for tournaments it is. Yeah sure you can counter it. Its not about winning dude. If you play on a board that is 36 inches from opponent to opponent, and you have average 6 inch movement, that means for 6 turns you stare and move while your opponent plays and you dont. Its just dumb. Personally, Im glad I dont have to ever play a game like that again. I still play an opponent every week who brings at least 1 warband of mirkwood rangers, Legolas, Tauriel, Thranduil with bow, maxed out elven bows, and a warband of riders of rohan. I literally lol....and yeah man...I sit there writing lists in my [word deleted] notebook for hours some days......sit there and figure out ways to close the gap, especially with mordor. I do too, and almost always win. Its fine because hes a good friend and just likes those troops. Also, we play with warbands and both like the system. So for those of us "crying", its not that. Its just really god damn boring playing without warbands against all riders of rohan, mirkwood rangers, harad bow spam, grey company etc..... Usually if a person has to sit back and shoot only, they suck. And uninteresting. You talk about the napoleanic way of fight or whatever....its more like WW1 no mans land, or Russians charging German machine guns the other way lol. Id be fine playing old rules against a person like you, but some others.....nah. |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
I do like the Warbands, just not current deployment rules. When I referred to Napoleanics invading SBG its the whole line up and shoot, or march the straight line battle-lines into combat. But you're correct on the one side sit back and rain shots down while the other side charges is more of a trench-warfare style. The rules were changed to be brought more in line with 40k and fantasy, which is never a good thing, because as strategy games those are seriously lacking. Ultimately the new deployment has birthed the one thing I hate more than trench warfare, spam the elite close-combat unit and cause a major shift towards the 40k uber-unit style. You see so many armies now of nearly pure Reavers, Ferals, Fountain Guard, Watchers, Khazads etc. and its the worst lol. I hate the theme breaking for one, but it reduces the game from an opportunity to test tactical skill to a boring one unit type v one unit type. |
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| Author: | LordoftheBrownRing [ Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
Well although I believe they put did warbands improving the system, I believe they also did it to raise sales of heroes and elites..... |
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| Author: | Dikey [ Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
In one old game with the old rules, the shadow lord saved my units from 39 shots who would have otherwise been successful. I had only six casualties from bow fire. Against opponent who use lots of bows, it's a must. And it's also a pretty good spellcaster. |
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| Author: | Lhel [ Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
JamesR wrote: I do like the Warbands, just not current deployment rules. When I referred to Napoleanics invading SBG its the whole line up and shoot, or march the straight line battle-lines into combat. But you're correct on the one side sit back and rain shots down while the other side charges is more of a trench-warfare style. The rules were changed to be brought more in line with 40k and fantasy, which is never a good thing, because as strategy games those are seriously lacking. Ultimately the new deployment has birthed the one thing I hate more than trench warfare, spam the elite close-combat unit and cause a major shift towards the 40k uber-unit style. You see so many armies now of nearly pure Reavers, Ferals, Fountain Guard, Watchers, Khazads etc. and its the worst lol. I hate the theme breaking for one, but it reduces the game from an opportunity to test tactical skill to a boring one unit type v one unit type. I've only been in the hobby since last November, but I do see what you're describing. The few games I have played I always seem to be meeting massed archers and elite troops for close combat. Boromir and fountain guard for example. Usually also see warmachines from here to next sunday. Regardless, I think the people in the thread here bring up a good point, the "blinding light" characters for evil become almost mandatory when meeting such focused shot and back off armies. Evil armies can do it too exceptionally well, but irregardless of the side it's a pain to play against. |
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| Author: | AlatartheRed [ Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
what evil characters have blinding light? |
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| Author: | Frêrin [ Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: takeing on a army with a huge group of archers |
The Shadow Lord has something similiar. With the new deployment rules, it isn't that bad anymore. You have a good chance your opponent has to deploy only 10" away (2 ranks). So heroic march in the first turn you are only 4" away and your opponent gets a maximum of 2 shootphases with malus. |
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