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Ringwraiths - too cheap ?
https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=16515		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Keithandor [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Ringwraiths - too cheap ?
I have only played 3 games so I have no idea really , but does anyone really think Ringwraiths are only worth 125 points ?
I'd pay 200 and still take one in my army .
Author:  Azrothan [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:27 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm not sure if they're cheap, or all unit upgrade spellcasters are expensive.

I mean they all pay 100 points for 1 might, 1 spell discipline and only Mastery level 1 (max 1 spell per turn).
For 25 extra the Ringwraiths get 2 spell disciplines, Epic Strike, a unique special rule in addition to Terror and Spirit Grasp, along with a Mastery level of 3 (max 3 spells per turn) and not to mention 5 Courage and 5 Fight (both higher than the standard unit uppgrades, apart from Elves).

But compared to other spellcasters that weigh in closer to 200 and a bit above (like Gandalf, Radagast, Galadriel, Saruman (both) and Elrond), they fall short in terms of epic actions and might.

I'm going with the latter, that the standard unit upgrade wizards are too expensive for what they do, and should probably be lowered to the 50-75 range. But I have yet to play a game though, so it's all just speculation from my part. :P
Author:  Elf mumakil [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:12 am ]
Post subject: 
The shaman uprgrades are meant for larger battles where you have already used up all your epic heroes with magic and for senarios where you can only have set heroes.
Author:  Azrothan [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
That would require an epic army! :shock:
Author:  Elf mumakil [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Not when you have armys such as Isenguard and Fallen Realms where there is only 1 spell caster hero.
Author:  Jayha85 [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree that Shamans are pretty overpriced for what you get. The one RingWraith that I think isn't worth the points they have him at is the Witch King. I don't have my book with me so i just have to make a guess, but I think he's 75 more points then the other wraiths making him 200 points. True enough he has 3 might, 6 Fight, and still has Epic Strike, but his special rule is kind of lousy. Sure free At the Doubles would be nice, or making sure your opponent can't At the Double is ok, but is it really worth taking over one of the other wraiths?
I'd be happy if the Witch Kings special rule was switched with Khamuls. You might have to increase his points a little, since the Khamul special rule and 3 might would make his formation a beast in close combat, but in my mind it would make a lot more sense both points wise, and thematically. He'd be the head of just about every Mordor or Angmar army out there (which is proper since he's the greatest of the 9), and he'd be a force to be reckoned with just like in the books and movies.
I've seen a lot of posts for Mordor army lists, but I can't say I've seen any that take the Witch King. It's a real shame because he's a cool looking model (especially on a Felbeast) but his stats aren't worth his points so he's usually passed over unless the army is strictly themed. :sad:
Author:  Azrothan [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't get the same epic feel that the Witch-King had in the movies either. Not even a small little rule about his huge flail, which should give +2 to hit. :-D

Imo F7, R3, C6, Touched by Destiny, Very hard to Kill on Nazgûl along with all other Ringwraiths unique special rules (well perhaps excluding one or two. :P )

Then he would rock. :D

They should make him 300 points of rock! And perhaps 400 on the Nazgûl. And ofc make him go on foot if it is killed instead of removing the whole model.:twisted:
Author:  johnny189 [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
The only res 3 formations are the really good ones like the fellowship, and a res 3 nazgul would be a bit strong I think, although, like any monster with only very hard to kill, a formation of archers with a might heavy hero (boromir or gil-galad) could take him out in one turn, and he would still be prone to command spells.
Author:  Azrothan [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well the Nazgûl could still have R2, as long as he's "left standing" (i.e. moving in with a unit within 18" like any other epic hero could move) with R3. 8)
Author:  War_Illithid [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Jayha85 wrote:
I've seen a lot of posts for Mordor army lists, but I can't say I've seen any that take the Witch King.


Mine does :) On a fellbeast of course. He is absolutely not worth putting down into a formation :( His special rule will almost never come into effect there. As it is, I think some ringwraiths are a bit too powerful for their points due to incredible special rules (Khamul anyone?). But mediocre fight, only 1 epic ability, and 1 might doesn't make for very strong of an epic hero. There are probably only 2 or 3 ringwraiths I would take at 150 points. Of those, I would probably only take khamul if they were 175 points. I don't think I would play Mordor if my ringwraiths cost 200.

As it is I think that shamans are just terrible for their rediculous point cost. As strong as magic is, 100 points isn't worth 1 discipline and 1 spell mastery. I could see using some if they were 75 points. 50 would probably be too cheap.

Azrothan wrote:
Imo F7, R3, C6, Touched by Destiny, Very hard to Kill on Nazgûl along with all other Ringwraiths unique special rules (well perhaps excluding one or two. )

Then he would rock.

They should make him 300 points of rock! And perhaps 400 on the Nazgûl.


That would just be rediuclous. You are only increasing his cost by 75 points for the felbeast version. He really only needs a rehaul on his special rule to make it something that will come up more than once or twice in a game. Although he should have Very Hard to Kill! imo.
Author:  Azrothan [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:03 am ]
Post subject: 
I only just took numbers off the top of my head, increasing the points with 100 for the Fellbeast, but you're right. He should be around 300 points without it, and 450 on it (150 point Fellbeast).

And just skip the copying of unique special rules and add his "No man can kill me", discounting hits on 2+/3+ or something as appropriate. 8)
Ofc bringing him down to R2 again, and this special rule does not apply to the Fellbeast. And ofc does not apply to women. :-D

Oh, and if there is any Evil Epic Hero that should have Epic Duel, it's the Witch-king. So we add that. :yay:
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:31 am ]
Post subject: 
I think the Nazgul as Epic Heroes can be a real bargain and add a lot of power, but they are also VERY vulnerable. With only an average Fight and a single point of Might they can be taken out in Duels by most decent Good Heroes and even a generic Captain has a very good chance. Although my Nazgul has served me well leading my growing Dol Guldur army, in a recent game I lost him on the first round of combat in a Duel. :shock:

Doesn't matter how good he COULD have been if he's dead. :roll:
Author:  Phantom_Lord [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Beowulf03809 wrote:
I think the Nazgul as Epic Heroes can be a real bargain and add a lot of power, but they are also VERY vulnerable. With only an average Fight and a single point of Might they can be taken out in Duels by most decent Good Heroes and even a generic Captain has a very good chance. Although my Nazgul has served me well leading my growing Dol Guldur army, in a recent game I lost him on the first round of combat in a Duel. :shock:

Doesn't matter how good he COULD have been if he's dead. :roll:


thats basically the best way to deal with them, duel him. My kings champions main role in the first turns of the game is to slay any annoying wraith and other hero's by epic duelling them. :)
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Phantom_Lord wrote:
Beowulf03809 wrote:
I think the Nazgul as Epic Heroes can be a real bargain and add a lot of power, but they are also VERY vulnerable. With only an average Fight and a single point of Might they can be taken out in Duels by most decent Good Heroes and even a generic Captain has a very good chance. Although my Nazgul has served me well leading my growing Dol Guldur army, in a recent game I lost him on the first round of combat in a Duel. :shock:

Doesn't matter how good he COULD have been if he's dead. :roll:


thats basically the best way to deal with them, duel him. My kings champions main role in the first turns of the game is to slay any annoying wraith and other hero's by epic duelling them. :)


Yeah...so those Nazgul players better be hitting him with Black Breath and sending his Orc Captain to duel you instead. :P
Author:  Keithandor [ Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:28 am ]
Post subject: 
It's a bit dangerous to go dueling the wraiths if they still have their point of might left , they will epic strike your challenger.
But once that might is gone you can have another go , or epic strike him yourself.
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