I applaud you.
Well said.
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| Pin wheel of death https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=17720 |
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| Author: | danded01 [ Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:40 am ] |
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If i were you I would get 8 formations of four company strong coriasar albastiers and 8 4 company strong haradrium warband along with kumul, the shadow lord and the betrayer. Use you cross bows to continuosly shoot s4 shots at him place the shadow lord in so they can only shoot at short range, kamul to bounce attacks back and the betrayer to re-roll failed hits and then use you haradrium warband to try and draw fire. |
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| Author: | Lost Cardolan [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:37 pm ] |
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Warning! Warning! Rant, dead ahead! (Full disclosure: the 'Ard Boyz tournaments as a whole disgust me, and I find it hard to be very rational when talking about them--I may even talk like I think the sky is falling.) Now, with that out of the way.... I think the 'Ard Boyz tourneys are a step in the opposite direction for a company that describes themselves--and the way they do business--to potential investors as one who thinks long term, aims to do what right (not what's easy), and would rather make regular, constant growth (rather than big ups and big downs), This army list (and player--did he seriously proxy models...and go against 'Ard Boyz tourney rules?) is a symptom of what happens when you offer HUGE prizes and demand no social graces from players and add in the phrase "anything goes." Apparently "anything goes" also means not following the (very) few rules laid down by the tournament organisers. It sounds to me like Mr Pinwheel knew just enough rules to decide that if he were to bone up on the game a bit and do plenty of math-hammer, he'd have an excellent chance at getting GW's soopa' prize for winning an 'Ard Boyz tourney. I'm not trying to say he's an all-around terrible guy (really); I haven't met him; I haven't seen him play. For all I know, he could be a really nice guy, on the table and off. But I do know what I think about the people who bring point-and-click armies (you know the them, even if you haven't heard the term: armies that practically run themselves, that even drooling post-lobotomy patients could win with) and the level of skill necessary to do well with them. I'll at least concede that it does take a certain level of skill to construct such lists...about as much as it does to make a killer 'deck for Magic the Gathering. I think point-and-click armies are an unintentional aberration in the hobby that encourages guys to buy things "cause they look cool," paint them up and push them around the table. (Another full disclosure: I suck at MtG, deck construction, and optimized army-list building, so some of the above paragraph could just be professional jealousy.) It seems to me that the purpose behind tournaments, at their most fundamental level, is to create and nurture a gaming community. Some would argue that it's there just to sell more models. It isn't--though that is the wonderful side effect of a gaming community (just as is having gaming tables in your GW shop: people buy where they play). Unsurprisingly, I think 'Ard Boyz goes against this: while it probably does encourage players to escalate and optimize their armies in a very "cold war" fashion, it doesn't create community between players. Let me explain: there's an old parable (or what have you) where the sun and the wind are discussing which one of them is stronger and decide to prove themselves by trying to see who can remove the coat of a man walking by, below them. The wind blows as hard as he can, trying to blow the jacket off; the man bundles himself against the blowing wind...and the coat stays on. On the sun's turn, he just shines bright; the man decides to sit down and enjoy the now beautiful weather and takes off his coat to do so. The moral: persuasion is better than force. I think 'Ard Boyz is trying to force players to up their game through tough competition and the promise of a big-prize pay off. Whereas, if GW were doing the "right" thing, they'd try to help nurture a real community, where (and maybe this is only a truism around my parts) big, healthy gaming groups get guys to buy stuff all the time through their social interaction and camaraderie, not through constantly upping the ante. So kudos to Games Workshop: this round of 'Ard Boyz gained one new player, sold fifty models...a-a-a-and [word deleted] off several other players (who, I suspect have all bought--and will buy--more models than the one "new" guy...especially if he wins the big 'Ard Boyz prize). I'm having a hard time seeing how this is good in the long run, how this provides for regular, constant growth and how this is the 'right' way to promote the hobby, as opposed to the easy way. Rant over. Sorry, just needed to vent. |
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| Author: | grithmir [ Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:55 pm ] |
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well said! |
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| Author: | Queen Berúthiel [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:59 am ] |
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indeed |
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| Author: | ShadowMaster26 [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:24 am ] |
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I applaud you. Well said. |
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| Author: | midloo [ Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:32 pm ] |
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Enfid wrote: Am I the only one who's concerned that a troublesome unit is made with hero spam, and one of the best way to counter it is with more heroes?
Instead of a well thought out game that has plenty of room for good strategy, I really hope WOTR won't become "Epic Heroes of the Rings" or Herohammer. Agreed - but like any tabletop game, it is in part what you make of it. Ard Boys tournaments make a mockery of something that should be a fun experience in Middle Earth, Warhammer, etc... The Pinwheel just further convinces me that I'm much happier staying far away from them. Just one other comment/question - how do things like Ard Boys help promote the hobby? It doesn't seem to excite the unitiated and it only seems to [word deleted] off the old-timers (that aren't cheesy enough to take a broken list FTW). Lame lame lame. EDITED: What? I can't say [word deleted]? That's a bag of warm monkey [word deleted]! |
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| Author: | lordgoober [ Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:49 am ] |
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yeah. I was at the Chicago Bunker today and a couple guys from San Francisco who had come out for the Ard Boyz finals came in. We were having a bit of a discussion about WotR. A couple of the things that the main guy from those two had for rules opinions. 1: Epic Strike in duels = kosher. I disagreed with him here. 2: Big point cost for Legendary Formations includes first company cost. Once again I disagreed. The list he's planning on using in the finals is something he said he would never use in a normal game. For one, he's going to have a formation that will effectively wipe out instantly any formation it hits as it will have Aragorn, Gimli and Elendil in it so there will be Epic Rampage with +5 to hit on every roll and then a bunch of other epic heros including a pair of Counselors. he does agree that a faq is desperately needed. Addendum. I was at the bunker tonight for WFB league night (painting Epic of all things  ) and one of the local L/WotR players who's also a big SG guy was talking with the redshirt who was in charge of running the Ard Boyz finals. From what I heard, the guy running the Pinwheel of Death won the thing. There were so many questions that needed answering that the bunker guy is going to make a "Bunker WotR FAQ" that will eventually go on the new website that the Chicago Bunker made recently.
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| Author: | Hellfury [ Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:46 am ] |
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midloo wrote: Ard Boys tournaments make a mockery of something that should be a fun experience in Middle Earth, Warhammer, etc... The Pinwheel just further convinces me that I'm much happier staying far away from them.
Just one other comment/question - how do things like Ard Boys help promote the hobby? It doesn't seem to excite the unitiated and it only seems to [word deleted] off the old-timers (that aren't cheesy enough to take a broken list FTW). Lame lame lame. Agreed on all counts. I played in one 40K 'ard boys with a bunch of locals who knew one another. While the lists were dead hard, they werent giant phalluses about playing. I came in dead last and had a great time. I played in the next one in town a couple days later as well as the semi finals and it was one big d0uchebag convention of anal lickers. I quit 40K because of it in fact. I swore I would never again attend one. WotR is not streamlined enough to be competitive, let alone ultracompetitive even if I feel it is GW's better wargames rules to date. A WotR 'ard boys is just asking for trouble. |
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| Author: | midloo [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:00 pm ] |
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Hellfury wrote: I swore I would never again attend one. WotR is not streamlined enough to be competitive, let alone ultracompetitive even if I feel it is GW's better wargames rules to date. A WotR 'ard boys is just asking for trouble. Exactly. The other two major systems have had years to develop to the point where they are now. There are many parts of the rules that are accepted as standards and just aren't questioned. You should get closer to that point with WotR before having an Ard Boys for it. WotR is my favorite of the big three systems too. Sometimes I wonder if the rules really have as many holes and are as poorly written as people say, or if it is just the fact that there isn't a longer history with the game... that shared experience and understanding of the rules that exists with 40k and WHF isn't there quite yet with WotR because it just hasn't been around as long. I'm sure a 2nd edition would do a lot to tweak some of the language to make specific rulings more clear, but I do think the game just needs to age a bit and establish some standards. An analogy might be in programming languages. Sure - there are many 'rules' that need to be followed, but as a language is used, it's developed by its user base and certain standards and conventions arise that get more people on the same page. Maybe WotR needs a consortium to make some decisions and establish those standards like the web has the W3 
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| Author: | theskinnyhobbit [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:36 pm ] |
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I have never viewed GWs games as tournament games. The lack of clarity in the rules and the lack of balance in the forces make their games a poor choice for a serious tournament. WOTR is particularly bad in these respects. However, it is loads of fun to play, and that is what games are about. |
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| Author: | Xelee [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:15 pm ] |
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theskinnyhobbit wrote: I have never viewed GWs games as tournament games. The lack of clarity in the rules and the lack of balance in the forces make their games a poor choice for a serious tournament. WOTR is particularly bad in these respects. However, it is loads of fun to play, and that is what games are about.
I haven't played any of those other games, but have observed endless discussions about tier scoring for comp etc amongst the locals whenever an event comes up. I take that to mean those games are profoundly unbalanced, since they require parallel systems just to make them (somewhat) workable in a competitve environment. I think WOTR is fine at a local event, where the TO can just do up their own FAQ, or have it in their head, and everyone will at least be on the same page. Though my back was killing me by the end (alot of movement in WOTR compared to FOW?), I really enjoyed the small event we had here a while ago. However, I wouldn't travel to attend a 'big' WOTR even until either an agreed community FAQ emerges or GW produces one. Even then, I have seen issues with players exploiting the lack of balance in the lists, so I imagine I will be sticking to FOW as a 'competitive' game. Even then, with my FOW skill, I am really still just playing for fun at that level 
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| Author: | Hellfury [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:22 pm ] |
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theskinnyhobbit wrote: I have never viewed GWs games as tournament games. The lack of clarity in the rules and the lack of balance in the forces make their games a poor choice for a serious tournament. WOTR is particularly bad in these respects. However, it is loads of fun to play, and that is what games are about.
That sums up my thoughts on GW games as well. I am of two minds when I see endless internet discussions (read: chest beating) about how certain lists are good, comps scoring, what units are great, etc. Its the biggest waste of time to do this with games that are not meant to be played on such a competitive level.. |
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| Author: | DainIronfoot [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:56 pm ] |
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The "Pin Wheel of Death" may not be the scariest thing since battlehosts are coming out.... We all know someone is going to find one of those insane multi battlehost lists |
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| Author: | midloo [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:57 pm ] |
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And then they'll have no friends with which to enjoy the game
It's too bad the rules allow for such things (since they are much more rare in a system like SBG), but at least you always have the option not to be a turd
Unless you want to win an Ard Boys and cry your friendless self to sleep on a pile of GW merch 
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