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Shooting at flying monsters.
https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=18524		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Rikin [ Fri May 21, 2010 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting at flying monsters.
Gulavhar and the eagles are flying monsters and therefore i assume
they circle above the battlefield. If they are behind formations at ground level
can archers see them over other formations. Same with trolls as the are nearly
twice the height of infantry monsters. Another quire is heroes with spirit grasp. it says that if a unit is blocking another you only get support shots.

so whats the story. it has caused a few arguments as i know alot of people who want to protect their flying monsters.
Author:  Hellfury [ Fri May 21, 2010 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting at flying monsters.
Rikin wrote:
Gulavhar and the eagles are flying monsters and therefore i assume
they circle above the battlefield. If they are behind formations at ground level
can archers see them over other formations. Same with trolls as the are nearly
twice the height of infantry monsters. Another quire is heroes with spirit grasp. it says that if a unit is blocking another you only get support shots.

so whats the story. it has caused a few arguments as i know alot of people who want to protect their flying monsters.


It boils down to this:

Unless a model or formation is either on or counts as Elevated Terrain, it can have LOS to it blocked by any model or formation. This is an abstraction that does not utilize “True LOS” or height levels from other systems. The assumption that flying monsters should always bee seen is a preconceived notion arising from experience playing other games and is transferred over to this one as being 'common sense'.

Now if your group decides to say "Hey, do you think we should alter LOS rules a bit to make it a bit more 'common sense' and say that flying monsters can always see and be seen (counting as always being on 'elevated terrain" ) unless another flying monster or elevated terrain blocks LOS to them since they are flying?" then there shouldn't be a problem because you have all made a house rule that everyone can abide by.

If you note the War Mumak of Harad has the special rule "Massive Monster" which denotes this status and is the exception to the rule because it explicitly states it.
But there is nothing that says flying monsters do count as being on or as elevated terrain as a general rule. Nor do I see any of the flying monsters state in their rules which portrays them to be as such as noted in the Mumak's example.

Do I think that flying mosters should count as being on or as elevated terrain as a general rule? I dont see why not, as it does make sense to me. But agreeing to use that is just a house rule, so keep that in mind when playing strangers and discuss such prior to the game.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Sat May 22, 2010 12:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
The rules, as Hellfury has pointed out, are very clear that you need line of sight and that exceptions are being on elevated levels (which the Mumak counts as) to shoot at enemy formations. If a formation/terrain is interposing, then you can't see. There are no exceptions made for flying monsters etc.

Again, as said, you can make a house rule, but it would need to be implemented by both sides and drastically reduces the effectiveness of flying monsters.

As to your second point, I'm not sure what you mean. However, I shall try to answer it: An Epic Hero's Spirit Grasp rule has no effect on anything and does not transfer onto his formation. As to the second point: if a company is behind another, but in the same formation, then they provide just +1 die to the shooting attacks (or if they otherwise can't see, E.G. terrain in front of one company, but not the other, etc).

Hope that answers the questions!
Author:  Rikin [ Sat May 22, 2010 4:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
well like their y who takes the terror of arnor and puts a company of five ghosts and six of those carn dum 'probably not the right spelling :-D. he does this so that the terror of arnor can fit perfectly in between the two and noone can shoot at it because the fact that these two infantry formations are in front. and taking the one shot per company isn't worth it.

I just feel that it is something that needs to be looked at. a line if hobbits can block an eagle that is meant to be flying over them. i think they should count as being able to be seen. but when it comes down to it who is going to allow their terror of armor lose its meat shield.
Author:  sinerth [ Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting at flying monsters.
The only right rule is (and no, you cant make any speculations because the rulebook specifies it) The flying monsters dont circle around battlefield, after they made a move they land on the ground (see flying monsters moving over another formations, difficult /impassable terrain, page 34). Thats why they cant stop their move on impassible terrain or formation. So this fact tell us clearly that line of sight is blocked by the formation the monster is behind of. (size doesnt matter if not specified as in Mumakil rule). Another sentence to back up this rule is: "The "line of fire" cannot be traced through other formations, defensible terrain features or hills. Players should assume that the entire base of the terrain feature blocks a company's view in this manner, regardless of how the specific feature is modelled. So you see no matter if the formation or wall is higher or smaller than units behind it, it still blocks them if they are not on elevated positions.The same is for the fact of casting spells by flying monster. He chooses to fly only for the moment of casting the spell to see the battlefield better thats why he can trace line of sight through everthing and when he finishes he lands back on the ground so he s hidden again (and as we know shoot phase is AFTER move phase and casting spells). I think everybody should understand it now. At the end the most crucial is what you choose: if you choose to apply some rules from lotr (like for sieges which is even recommended) be my guest. But if you want to play the "strict wotr" game you should apply to the rule above and others from wotr rulebook. (and sometimes just use a common sense BUT dont overinterpret the rules)
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
Rikin wrote:
and taking the one shot per company isn't worth it.

Keep in mind that at least 1 company from a formation has to be able to shoot directly at a target for supporting companies to attack at all. You can't just have all of your companies fire as supporting companies over LoS blocking troops, at least one of them has to have LoS and Arc of Fire on the target.
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