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overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=19479		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Shadowswarm [ Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
ie: durburz has overlord, so he can use a might pt for another formation to make a heroic action. does this mean he can call a heroic duel on a cave troll? or must the troll be a hero?

and since ppl like gollum and grima are assigned to enemy formations, if the enemy formation is destroyed, do they also get destroyed?
also with gollum, he kills someone if there is 1 or more casualties, but when do u do this? at the end of the turn? or each phase? cause u could hit them with magic (kill one, then gollum kills one), then shoot (u kill more, and then gollum kills 1 more), you fight (and kill more, so gollum kills another).... or just 1 kill per turn... not sure but want to know as he could be worth taking against tough units
Author:  spuds4ever [ Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
Shadowswarm wrote:
ie: durburz has overlord, so he can use a might pt for another formation to make a heroic action. does this mean he can call a heroic duel on a cave troll? or must the troll be a hero?

and since ppl like gollum and grima are assigned to enemy formations, if the enemy formation is destroyed, do they also get destroyed?
also with gollum, he kills someone if there is 1 or more casualties, but when do u do this? at the end of the turn? or each phase? cause u could hit them with magic (kill one, then gollum kills one), then shoot (u kill more, and then gollum kills 1 more), you fight (and kill more, so gollum kills another).... or just 1 kill per turn... not sure but want to know as he could be worth taking against tough units


1. Durburz can use heroic actions for other formations but he can't do a heroic duel for a cave troll as the cave troll is not a hero.

2.Yes, where else would they go?

3.It says, "every time the formation suffers a casualty" so I guess that's from seperate events like you said, magic will kill +1, and another spell would kill +1 as well, shooting would also have +1 kill etc.
Author:  General Elessar [ Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
spuds is right, except for possibly the first question which nobody is sure about. Some players say the formation needs a hero in it to use the Overlord rule, others say you don't.
Author:  BlackMist [ Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
Number 1 is a grey area as General Elessar said and there's been countless discussions about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but:

The argument for Heroic used by a non-hero (or one not containing a hero within it) formation is that the rule states "formation" can use the Might point - rather than specifically a hero.

The argument against Heroic used by a non-hero formation goes deeper and states that *although Overlord grants the formation a Might point, only a hero in a formation is capable of using it (because only the Hero rules provide ability of calling Heroic actions), therefore if there is no hero, the formation may not benefit* (IMHO quite logical). Also, the fact that the rule states that the formation may use Overlord's Might instead of its own leads people to believe that you have to have your own X Might points available to be able to use the rule. Another one which I just thought about - the rule refers to "formation" because that statement includes things like Dragons and other Monstrous Heroes, who are indeed capable of calling Heroic Actions, rather than writing them specifically in the rule, GW tries to keep things simple and confuses everyone yet again in their own original and brilliant way ;)

Agree with your opponent before the game or at a tournament consult the refrees. I lean towards the interpretation against useage of Overlord without heroes, even though I usually use 2 overlords in my competitive armies (Gothmog and Durburz).

I wonder what they'll do at GT about it - I suggest preparing for the worst case scenario (non-Hero may not use Overlord), learning how to play without it and then cheer when you get a new weapon at your disposal (rather than other way round and lose because of too much reliance on that rule).
Author:  Shadowswarm [ Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
well for balance sake it better be no to my first question. cause imagine having a regular troll charge you, then you find out hes about to duel u and kill you, thus u die or use up presious ES (and cave trolls are so cheap you could do it all the time)

and my second one... well i agree as well, its so annoying that you'd kill ur own guy.....

and the last one... that has the possibility to get ALOT of kills.... if its for every different thing (formation 1s shooting, then formation 2s shooting....) then you could get 5 extra kills.... and against a super hard unit its totally worth it (not to mention how fun it would be to play hide and seek with gandalf etc...)

oh, and it was really late when i wrote this... i thought about it as i got into bed, then jumped here and asked u guys... thus y its not in the official rules questions forum
Author:  Xelee [ Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
For me, this is in the category of "I'm not going to do it, but the rules aren't clear enough to state you shouldn't be doing it." A couple of my regular opponents do do it.

Some Overlords are very cheap, and you could do some very potent things if any formation can call the action. This is another of those areas where GW probably want to be more consistent on the costing. Allowing a basic Ent to duel (but not be open to a duel, the rest of the time) seems fair enough for the 300pt Gandalf the White, but allowing a Stone GIant to duel is a bit too cheaply done by Durbuurz.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
A fair way of doing it might be to say that they can use the points of Might to affect dice rolls, but not use Heoric Actions? Since Heroic Actions specify that you need to be a hero to use them, whereas the +/-1 to dice rolls is just a use of Might...
Author:  Shadowswarm [ Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
no, cause then my seemingly harmless archers could then take down things like fell beast with a singe volley
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
Which they can do with a captain in the mix anyway or a captain and someone with Overlord.

So, your flat-out no is actually entirely redundant.

A captain/hero and an Epic Hero with Overlord means that you can spend about 6 points of Might to kill the fell beast. Even JUST a captain could spend 2 points. However, my suggestion is as overpowered as you so heavily implied because being able to +/-1 to dice rolls isn't (usually) as useful as a (E.G.)Heroic Move used by the formation (which the rules currently read as you being able to do: I was about to reference my first post in this thread, but it seems to have disappeared.... That's not the first time that it's happened either. How odd... Anyway, it specifies formation, rather than Hero and any monster with might is a hero, so that's not why they say formation. Also, if their might is -, then they use the Epic Hero's might instead of their own [E.G. The EH's 4 instead of their -.]).

I guess my point is: rules as read say "Formations have access to the EH's Might store and may use it as such.", whereas my suggestion for those that think that's wrong, but think it's redundant to have a Hero in the unit to use the EH's Might since they have their own, is "Formations have access to the EH's Might store and may use it only to affect dice rolls, but not use Heroic/Epic actions without a Hero/EH in the unit".

If you still think that it's unfair, then logic dictates that you would think that using a captain's Might is unfair: no offence, but I doubt that you do.
Author:  BlackMist [ Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
Sorry but:
Hashut's Blessing wrote:
A captain/hero and an Epic Hero with Overlord means that you can spend about 6 points of Might to kill the fell beast.

How did you come up with dice modification in all of this when there is no mention of that in the Overlord rules at all??????

Hero rules say "Any individual Hero can override the normal sequence by giving up one point of Might to make a Heroic action" - whereas a hero-less formation doesn't have that ability. The overlord is not calling a heroic action for another formation, he's just giving away his might to that formation. The formation then may choose to use it, but only a Hero is capable of doing so, therefore the formations needs a hero.

Hashut's Blessing wrote:
I guess my point is: rules as read say "Formations have access to the EH's Might store and may use it as such

Yeah they have access but... they still don't have the ability to do it because only a hero in a formation has that ability.
Author:  hithero [ Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
As BM say's, the Overlord is giving Might to another hero to use - simples.
Author:  spuds4ever [ Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
hithero wrote:
As BM say's, the Overlord is giving Might to another hero to use - simples.


Dosen't that defeat the practicallity of overlord? I'd want overlord to give a bonus which the formation dosen't normally have not give might to some crummy captain who will be duelled and has no epic actions.
Author:  BlackMist [ Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
Spuds4ever wrote:
Dosen't that defeat the practicallity of overlord? I'd want overlord to give a bonus which the formation dosen't normally have not give might to some crummy captain who will be duelled and has no epic actions.

Sorry, but the rules don't actually cover what 'you'd want' overlord to do, but what it actually does. I'd want my orcs to fly and autokill and still cost 15 points - but that's not what the rules say, is it? It doesn't defeat practicality of the Overlord, just get yourself some heroes, I'd say usually you have a lot of points free after fielding all the core troops.
Author:  hero of gondor [ Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
The rules are clear with overlord they say:

A friendly formation within 24" of a overlord can use the might of the overlord to make a heroic action instead of their own. So you must have might.
Author:  Xelee [ Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
So on that interpretation, actually having a hero may still not be enough to benifit from the overlord ability?
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
BlackMist wrote:
Sorry but:
Hashut's Blessing wrote:
A captain/hero and an Epic Hero with Overlord means that you can spend about 6 points of Might to kill the fell beast.

How did you come up with dice modification in all of this when there is no mention of that in the Overlord rules at all??????

Hero rules say "Any individual Hero can override the normal sequence by giving up one point of Might to make a Heroic action" - whereas a hero-less formation doesn't have that ability. The overlord is not calling a heroic action for another formation, he's just giving away his might to that formation. The formation then may choose to use it, but only a Hero is capable of doing so, therefore the formations needs a hero.

Hashut's Blessing wrote:
I guess my point is: rules as read say "Formations have access to the EH's Might store and may use it as such

Yeah they have access but... they still don't have the ability to do it because only a hero in a formation has that ability.


Okay, I concede to having forgotten that it says to use a Heroic Action as opposed to just using their Might, however, there's no need to imply idiocy on my part by the extra question marks - a simple reminder is sufficient.

As to the second point, I will rise above your frustrated sounding pettiness with a simple clarification: It wouldn't state that the Formation can use the Might to use Heroic Actions if it wasn't an exemption to ordinary rules and, as I said before, GW have used this in battles and put it into tactica. To go against it is to ignore what GW are telling you the rule means. The reason that it says instead of their own is because of the possibility of having a Captain in there or it being a Heroic Monster, etc. Their Might is -, which is replaced by the EH's: as the rule specifies. TH efact that they have - just means they have no Might to spend changing dice rolls, the fact that they aren't Heroes means that ([b]under normal circumstances, which this rule is an exception[/b[) they cannot use Heoric Actions.

hithero: Then why doesn't it say hero? Since Heroic Monsters are still heroes?

spuds4ever: It makes it utterly pointless in that it is a poorer, longer ranged Counsellor ability...

BlackMist: I seriously doubt that you actually want that ;)

hero of gondor: The rules are clear. "Instead of their own." That means instead of "-", which is their Might, meaning that they can use it.
Author:  BlackMist [ Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
Hashut's Blessing wrote:
there's no need to imply idiocy on my part by the extra question marks - a simple reminder is sufficient.

I meant no offense, I apologise. It just seemed weird that you say you know what the rules say but come up with something out of nowhere.

Quote:
As to the second point, I will rise above your frustrated sounding pettiness with a simple clarification:

Thing is - I'm not frustrated, I just quote what the rules say and just happened to repeat it again and again because some people refuse to actually aknowledge what they say. Honestly I don't care how you play it or how even GW staff in battle reports plays it because that is not official, I only care what the text says because at the end of the day these are the rules.

The most basic Heroic rules state the following "Any individual Hero can override the normal sequence by giving up one point of Might to make a Heroic action". This is the last time I repeat this (and last time I post in this thread too): A random Formation does not count as a Hero itself (ie. Formation of Orcs does not count as a Hero). Therefore the formation may not make a Heroic Action as per the Hero rules because of that one sentence in the Hero rules. The Overlord provides Might for Heroic Move as Hithero said. That's all.

Anyway, to the original poster - as you can see the arguments can show both interpretations in certain manners, so as I said before do what you want of it. Just consider the rules and/or agree with your opponents. Rules discussions are sometimes war-like, so that the people who care to read/post on forums don't have to waste time arguing or finding arguments during gameplay.
Author:  Xelee [ Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
Quote:
The most basic Heroic rules state the following "Any individual Hero can override the normal sequence by giving up one point of Might to make a Heroic action". This is the last time I repeat this (and last time I post in this thread too): A random Formation does not count as a Hero itself (ie. Formation of Orcs does not count as a Hero). Therefore the formation may not make a Heroic Action as per the Hero rules because of that one sentence in the Hero rules. The Overlord provides Might for Heroic Move as Hithero said. That's all.

Despite the usual wargamer tendency to treat statements about what can happen as exclusive (and even despite the fact they often are) there is a big difference between stating that the statement is probably meant to be exclusive and stating that it simply must be. It could quite easily not be exclusive, and if that were the case it is perfectly reasonable to interpret the Overlord rule literally: Another formation can call a heroic action using the might of the model with the overlord ability.
Author:  spuds4ever [ Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
BlackMist wrote:
Spuds4ever wrote:
Dosen't that defeat the practicallity of overlord? I'd want overlord to give a bonus which the formation dosen't normally have not give might to some crummy captain who will be duelled and has no epic actions.

Sorry, but the rules don't actually cover what 'you'd want' overlord to do, but what it actually does. I'd want my orcs to fly and autokill and still cost 15 points - but that's not what the rules say, is it? It doesn't defeat practicality of the Overlord, just get yourself some heroes, I'd say usually you have a lot of points free after fielding all the core troops.


I'm saying that that defeats the actual point of overlord. It's not useful at all and I'm guessing GW didn't want to make a pointless rule like that (though I could be wrong). Not just what I want but the actual use of the rule.
Author:  hithero [ Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overlord and non hero models, also a ? about gollum
spuds4ever wrote:
hithero wrote:
As BM say's, the Overlord is giving Might to another hero to use - simples.


Dosen't that defeat the practicallity of overlord? I'd want overlord to give a bonus which the formation dosen't normally have not give might to some crummy captain who will be duelled and has no epic actions.


You won't be saying that when you give Lurtz extra might for more epic duels, wiping out a ton of men (or elves) as you go - its a very powerful ability.
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