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WOTR Army Restrictions Mark I (Outdated)
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Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  WOTR Army Restrictions Mark I (Outdated)
After many years of WOTR, I have seen may rediculous armies and I composed the following restrictions for every army I make. Please feel free to comment.

1. There may not be more Epic Heroes in your army than ordinary heroes. Note lengendary formations that are monsters do not count as Epic Heroes and monstrous heroes that are common or rare do not count as ordinary heroes.
2. You must have at least one non-hero upgrade per 500 points total. Note upgrades that automatically come with a formation do not count but extra ones do.
3. All armies must be themed. All allies must be thematic as well as the main faction. Note, where there is no hero, you may feel free to use another's profile but it must be themed at least to an extent. This also means that Mordor and Misty Mountain armies must have at least one troll (including chieftain/drummer)
4. (Mordor only) When you want to use any Ringwraiths, at least 33% of them must be used taken instead as Winged Nazgul. This does not apply to Angmar or Fallen Realms or to a smaller points level using only a single wraith.
5. No cheesy combos! Unlss unintended use as such.
6. Only one Epic Hero per formation from the start of the game onwards, 2 or more Epics may only be in the same formation to escape certain doom. The exceptions are Heros with bodyguard or Epic Sacrifice.
Author:  Slythar [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
1 - I like it.
2 - Not sure why so important so don't like it.
3 - I like it. (Your house, your rules)
4 - Looks good athough I don't follow. At least a third of Wraiths must be Hero's? So if you want 3 Winged you need at least 2 Epics (60/40)?
5 - Sounds good although a list of these would be nice.
Author:  hero of gondor [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
Point 3 is the worst rule you can make. Who says an army is themed? I can make up a story by every army I made. Orcs and goblins together is themed they fought together in lothlorien. Also that makes sence why to put ringwraith in that army because khamul lead the attack at lothlorien.
point 2 is good but not usefull I just take a hornblower in every 500 points that's only 15 points.
Point 4 is fun but most people only take 2 ringwraiths so again not very usefull.
points 5 Once again what is cheeesy and what not? What's wrong with aragorn and gimli together fighting? They are made to fight together but it is one of the strongest combo's.
point '1: the only rule that actually makes sense.
Author:  Xelee [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
Hi GothmogtheWerewolf,

Aside from your wish to have a minimum number of non-hero upgrades, I think you can actually achieve most of what you want to do there by having a 'restricted hero' list. Designed right, such a list encourages more non-epic heroes, prevents the stupid combos that we are currently aware of and encourages winged Nazgul. That will get you out of having to set a list of specifically forbidden combos. I find that most people want to play themed lists until the nuclear arms race begins and that if guidelines keep a handle on that MAD aspect, then themed lists naturally follow without having to be required.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
Thankyou all for your comments, i will relpy to you all in the order your on here:

Slythar - thankyou for your positive comments and the winged nazgul aren't forced to take epics as well its the other way around, the non-hero upgrades are for themaatic purposes and extra tactical options, the cheesy combos will be answered further down.

hero of gondor - 3 - an army is themed if loooks like it is, although it would allow orcs and goblin led by Khamul, the army would have to have few or no morannon Orcs and Blacksheilds to be thematic, and Khamul would have to be without his bodyguards. 2 - its only one per 500 because misty mountains is limited to only one 75pt non-hero, maybe they should be forced to take at least one banner bearer/taskmaster as well. 4 - it works for 3 wraiths or more, if someone had two, they still have to have a minimum of 33% as winged nazgul so one one have to be one. Cheesy combos answered later but aragorn and gimli in the same company produces a cheesy combo so would not be allowed, but they would if they were in seperate formations, 1 - thanks

Xelee - I dind't want to have to restrict heroes because I think that at for eg 2000pts an army with both gothmog and khamul could be balanced if they were kept aparrt and the rest of the list was balanced eg using troops whose pts value seemms to high for what they do. Though there could be some way of doing it.

I've just thought of restriction 6: Only one epic hero per formation unless a hero needs to escape certain doom. No more than one may start the game in the same formation. Epics with the bodyguard or epic sacrifice are immune to this.

List of most common cheesy combos:
- Gothmog and multiple wraiths with lots of morannon orcs, khamul in same company as gothmog and dwimmerlaik,
- Royal Mordor Airfoce consisting only of battlehost and a single common choice, it can be used as long as no more than 50% of the total pts valuemay be spent on it
- 3 Councellors together in same army bouncing might. Max of 2 councillors and they may not trade might,
- Aragorn & Gimli in formation of Khazard Guard or similar, they may not be in same company
- Mass of Blackshileds with both Goblin heroes. They should rarely be in the same list given they hate each other, unless there's an exactly equal no of Goblin & wild creatures, one formation of Blackshields per one formation of Goblins with shields & one company of Blackshields per one company of gobbos with shields (restriction of Blackshields not Goblins.
Author:  General Elessar [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
The first one is good, I don't like the others.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
Thanks, but could you expand on why your not partial to restrictions 2 to 6
Author:  hero of gondor [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
Why limit counselors to 2 if they may not boost each other? Or say 2 counsellors or say counsellors may not boost each other. but not both that makes counsellors much worse.

Also I don't why you restrict gunbad blackshields, morannon orcs are the same cost just as strong and core and they have no restrictions.

also again on the theme ting. You should ask then to send tournament lists and check if they are thematic because you just say about it what you think. You can't say at the tournament itself that list is stupid and not thematic you may not play. That's much more work for tournament organisers. And again how do you depend if something is thematic? I think a list with orcs and gunbadad blackshields is just as thematic as a gondor list with rohan. both things happened in the books, so why can you say it is not thematic?

Also there are very much cheesy combo's who are very thematic like this:

Nazgul on fellbeast
Gothmog
2 morannon orcs formations
2 mumaks
2x haradrim raider formations

Very thematic pellenor fields army but you have a mumak and a overlord. so that means a mumak that moves 3x his own move with trampling.

Your idea are fun but they just don't work.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
Counselllors - I will change it
Morannon Orcs are the same as Minas Tirth Warriors and Arnor Warriors and restricting them would be unfair

It is a pity that what what makes sense in principle doesn't always work out well in practice, as for that list, it would need a captain and a few non-hero upgrades but I doubt that would fix it. Maybe then Morannons should be restricted the same way as Blackshields. Something needs to be done about mumakil though.
Author:  hero of gondor [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
morannon orcs are cheaper and stornger then warriors of minas tirith that 1 point strength is better then the courage.

Also there are much more cheesy combo's. Druzhag can cast his own points of beast. One formation army with radagst.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
Not if the army they're against has The Tainted and with shields, they're the same points.
Druzhag and Radagast only have limited might though Radagast could get councilled. Druzhag should only be use in a beast-heavy Moria army, an unlikely alliance with Durburz, or an ally to Angmar, whereas Radagast should be used only in elven lists, or unfortunately many others. How about, Radagast, who distances himself form the affairs of men, elves etc, should only be allowed if there is at least one ent or eagle.
Author:  Killerkatanas [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
I experienced the Aragorn/Gimli with Dain and his guard. Including the fortune Orcbane. The company with Gimli and Aragorn alone did 13 auto kills.

If Gimli or Dain also chose to do epic rampage it would mean that you would wipe out mot formations, no matter how large they are, and this includes the massive Gogoroth Horde Battlehost that is 12-15 bases; which could be wiped out in one fight automatically.

Epic Cheese indeed!

Brian
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
That's why I've mentioned the Aragorn/Gimli combo, I read about on hear long before I joined.
Author:  Xelee [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
Quote:
Xelee - I dind't want to have to restrict heroes because I think that at for eg 2000pts an army with both gothmog and khamul could be balanced if they were kept aparrt and the rest of the list was balanced eg using troops whose pts value seemms to high for what they do. Though there could be some way of doing it.

At 2000 pts I'd be inclined to leave the game as is and play it for the crazy powerfest that it can be. At that points level, the hero combos are actually of a benefit in that they will keep the modelcount down a bit. Without them, that is a heap of troops and playtime will grind. With typical armies here, 2000 pts would probably take at least three hours if the armies were twice the size of what we tend to get at 1000pts (though less if it were hero combos) so too long for comp play with the lists structured for balanced or themed forces.

For more reasonable sized competitive games (ie 1000-1500) then I think a restricted list is the way to go. The ensuing thread is doing a good job of highlighting the complications you get otherwise.

Cheers
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
Thanks for your opinion, but with lots of lesser heroes, command options then even 3000pts could be more reasonably sized. Though I agree about play length.
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
To set things straight, for 5 less points/ Company than Morannon Orcs with shields, the Gundabad Blackshields have:

2" more movement than Morannons
1 less Fight than Morannons
1 less Defence than Morannons
1 more Courage than Morannons
Master Pathfinders special rule
Prowlers special rule
Mob Rule special rule
Ancient Enemies special rule.

It really is a lot of stuff. They're braver, MUCH more manoeverable, get extra bonuses for being large Formations, hit harder from the flank or rear and are only a little bit easier to kill. For the same price as Goblin Warriors, they're a steal. Just a shame the damn models are all metal.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
I think they wanted Blackshields in metal only for this reason, and that's why its better to be harsher to them than Morannon Orcs who are actually almost reasonably priced, it the cursed Blackshields who ought to be 30 or 35 pts.
Author:  Xelee [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
Quote:
Thanks for your opinion, but with lots of lesser heroes, command options then even 3000pts could be more reasonably sized. Though I agree about play length.

If there are going to be lots of command options, they will either need to be mandatory (I'd never take any otherwise, unless there was a spare 15pts) or repriced. I do have a set of houserules where I've repriced them, if that is the way you want to go. Heavy infantry with shields are a bit under-priced in this game, so I've repriced those and fixed xbow a little, along with the most egregious Nazgul abilities. Less favoured lists like Rohan and Elves have also been given a little lift to make them perform a little more like they probably should.

As the current costings stand, we have local armies that sometimes need to deploy with reserves just to fit on the table - at 1000pts. Once people think a little harder about the game/get some more experience, some aren't going to like having to have command upgrades for what they cost now or be forced into designing their lists in a certain way.
Author:  BlackMist [ Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
GothmogTheWerewolf wrote:
an army is themed if loooks like it is, although it would allow orcs and goblin led by Khamul, the army would have to have few or no morannon Orcs and Blacksheilds to be thematic, and Khamul would have to be without his bodyguards

No person has the right to say what is themed and what isn't. Why? Because essentially every model with every other has the themed right to be taken - they were all made in the same factory, so already theme in it :P

But honestly - I like 1st and I only like 2nd if you have a mandatory captain (not other options, but captain has to be in a formation - that would also help balance the game a bit because especially Evil has no benefit from captain, it's better to take all the cheap epics. With a mandatory captain evil has to invest in F3 or 4 captains instead of getting more Ringwraiths, while Good gets compulsory F5 or F7 captains like Elves. Plus not only is the number of spellcasters on evil decreased, there is also an automatic increase on the number of Might the Good side gets to resist. It kinda fixes a lot of problems in the game). I hate all the others, because a) you can't say what's themed and what's not, because anything can be explained reasonably. Why would you force players to take Winged Nazgul? The only time you hear of them is at the Battle of Pelennor fields and the Black Gate - you are therefore breaking your own theming rule this way, because Fell Beasts were invented at the end of the 3rd age as far as I know (although I don't remember exactly) and weren't used by wraiths for battles before that.
No cheesy combos - What is cheesy? Can you define? I don't even use that word because at a tournament level you will often find that every army in the top 10 (or so) is in some way using overpowered combos, underpriced units - does it mean it's cheesy? NO - it means the player knows how to exploit the game and get the most out of it. It means he's a powergamer? Perhaps. But most of all it means he knows the game so well and is such a good army builder that he deserves that spot. At the same time most of the time a player using the so called "Cheesy combos" an finishing high in a competition is also a good player, because otherwise his combo would be beaten by a better player not using any - that's just how the game works, a great player will always be better than a noob using overpowered combos found on the internet.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WOTR Army Restrictions
I've considered what you've all said, and I plan to change the restrictions. Look out for WOTR Army Restrictions Mark II coming to a computer/laptop etc screen near you.

By the way, the problem with completely madotary command options is that archers are greatly hindered. And evil side has Shades say sometimes fight is not a problem.
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