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Terror, Heroes and a Confused player
https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=30439		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  xcom101 [ Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Terror, Heroes and a Confused player
OK so I've just starting playing WotR and after a couple of practice games most of the rules are beginning to gel, all except the TERROR rule. So two questions,

1. Page 69 (bottom right boxed section) states, "A Epic Heroes special rules are not shared by a company he has joined. So if Hero that causes Terror is placed into a formation that doesn't cause Terror, then the formation doesn't get the terror ability. If I am reading this right then what is the point of Heroes with Terror?

2. A Hero and his (or her) formation is charged in the charge phase by a unit causing Terror. The courage roll is made and is failed so their fight is reduced to zero. The during the fight phase the hero calls "Epic Strike" raising the companies fight to 10 for their attack, although in defense it's still zero. Is this interpretation correct or does the Epic Strike failed because their fight is reduced to zero regardless of any heroic effect?

Cheers and many thanks in advance to all those that can answer these questions.
Author:  Draugluin [ Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Terror, Heroes and a Confused player
1. Since the company does in fact contain a model that causes terror, the company causes terror. It's one of the few rules that does carry over.

2. Not sure, but I would check the FAQs for that one.
Author:  Bairchoro [ Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Terror, Heroes and a Confused player
Xcom101,

You have asked 2 of the hardest philosophical questions related to the WotR game. Everyone has asked these 2 questions at one time or another … and it has lead to the creation of multiple house rules that can attempt to "untangle" the problem.

I have tried to "fix" these problems with our gaming group and have posted several examples to what you are referring on my blog:

http://bairwaroftheringproject.blogspot.com

Long story short:

Question 1: Under the "Vanilla WotR rules" you are absolutely correct. The Epic Hero does not give Terror to the company or the formation in which he is included. That means that the rule for Terror that belongs to an Epic Hero is completely useless. In fact, there was a FAQ that GW put out to that effect - saying that it was included "for completeness".

Here are a few posts that we have put up to help "clarity" the house-rule change(s) that we have made to "fix this problem".

http://bairwaroftheringproject.blogspot ... lysis.html

http://bairwaroftheringproject.blogspot ... ty-to.html

http://bairwaroftheringproject.blogspot ... c%20Strike

Question 2:

Quote:
A Hero and his (or her) formation is charged in the charge phase by a unit causing Terror. The courage roll is made and is failed so their fight is reduced to zero. The during the fight phase the hero calls "Epic Strike" raising the companies fight to 10 for their attack, although in defense it's still zero. Is this interpretation correct or does the Epic Strike failed because their fight is reduced to zero regardless of any heroic effect?


A few things that I noticed in your question. You say something about "defense being zero". This is not the case for Terror. It only reduces the "Fight Value" (and because of such, how many extra dice the attacker will get for fighting skill).

Here is a post that explains and shows how Terror works:

http://bairwaroftheringproject.blogspot ... umaks.html

Here is a post that explains how we propose to "fix" Epic Strike:

http://bairwaroftheringproject.blogspot ... thout.html

The only question that is a "hot topic" that you have not yet asked is about the Hard to Kill set of special rules … I'm sure the more you play - that one will expose itself, too!

Best wishes - let me know if I can be of any additional help!

- Bairchoro!
Author:  Draugluin [ Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Terror, Heroes and a Confused player
I thought the completeness thing in the FAQs applied to all special rules with the notable exception of Terror.
Author:  xcom101 [ Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Terror, Heroes and a Confused player
OK so to clarify:

Terror: Heroes company gets the terror ability if a hero joining their formation causes terror. Simple enough, though I can see some issues where you have a unit charging one formation and then impacts part of the formation with the hero. I guess if they end in base to base with the heroes company they have to undergo a courage test, if they don't base to base contact with the heroes company then no terror test required.

I guess on the second question, if a hero (stupidly?) declares heroic strike then gets charged and fails a courage test (due to terror), fight is reduced to zero simple. If epic strike declared after the failed courage test fight value 10 for the company (not the formation) right? (Sorry I did mean fight not Defense that was my typo). Not sure I could find a yes no answer to that question though I was interested in your list of fixes Bairchoro.

BTW can anyone provide the link to the FAQs for WotR, couldn't find it on their site the other day :(

And WOW I didn't realize the analysis that some people were doing on WotR - Awesome! Pity GW won't be publishing a WotR V2 with updates from players.
Author:  Bairchoro [ Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Terror, Heroes and a Confused player
Quote:
Terror: Heroes company gets the terror ability if a hero joining their formation causes terror. Simple enough, though I can see some issues where you have a unit charging one formation and then impacts part of the formation with the hero. I guess if they end in base to base with the heroes company they have to undergo a courage test, if they don't base to base contact with the heroes company then no terror test required.


Exactly - That is why in the blog posts for Epic Hero applicability we have "changed" the name of the special rule Terror to Bestow Terror when it belongs to an Epic Hero - and we've added the clarification via red-lines that it gives the special rule to "only the hero's company and not formation" (i.e., if charging the hero's company or being charged by the hero's company). As you put it in your second part - it would be rather stupid for an enemy to charge into a formation with an epic hero that has Bestow Terror when they could just charge a different company within the formation - but it is very advantageous for the epic hero to use his company as the spearhead when charging - since it has a dice roll chance of reducing the enemy's fight value to 0 … and giving the epic hero's company a multiple-dice advantage during the subsequent Fight Phase.

Quote:
I guess on the second question, if a hero (stupidly?) declares heroic epic strike then gets charged and fails a courage test (due to terror), fight is reduced to zero simple. If epic strike declared after the failed courage test fight value 10 for the company (not the formation) right?


lol - Here is another one of those "sticky/confusing" situations. Vanilla WotR does not say anything about resolution order with special rules/heroic actions/ epic actions. They did however bring this up in the FAQ, again - according to the FAQ that GW put out:

Quote:
Q: If an Epic Hero has fight 0 due to Terror, Blinding Light, etc. Does Epic Strike return the Fight to 10?

A: Yes, if it is used AFTER the effect that reduces the fight value to 0 - and i'm hard-pressed to think of an effect that could begin after an Epic Strike has been declared. This means that the Hero's company can, of course, use his newly minted Fight 10 when it strikes blows.


So, to answer your question [with respect to Vanilla WotR and FAQ], yes - if a Hero (stupidly) calls an Epic Strike before his company is charged by an enemy that causes Terror, then the Epic Strike will be "overwritten" by the Fight Value of 0 caused by a failed terror test.

Now, that being said … We thought that was a little 'disappointing' for the Epic-ness of Epic Strike. We actually instituted an overarching rule that dictated resolution order of varying levels of heroics. (In fact, I have a post in draft up on the blog that will be addressing this in the near future.)

*** NOTE: THIS IS HOUSE RULES - NOT VANILLA WOTR! ***

Standard Rule < Heroic Rule < Epic Rule

What we are saying is that Heroic Rules (i.e., anything that requires the expenditure of Might to execute) will always overwrite the effects of standard rules - regardless of when those rules are effected. Likewise, Epic Rules/Actions will always "win" over Heroic or Standard …

Also, if you look at how we "pointed" epic actions (as costing 10 points) and the way that the "pointed" stat increases for epic heroes (as costing 5 points per increase), we decided to change the Epic Strike Rule to not increase the Fight Value of the Epic Hero to 10, but rather increase it by +2 over whatever it is at in the moment.

So that being our mantra - the way that we play it is that if Epic Strike is called before being charged by a Terror causing unit - and failing the terror roll, the Epic Hero's Company will have a Fight Value of 2 (due to being reduced to 0 for the Terror courage check and +2 for the bonus from Epic Strike) and the Epic Hero's Formation (i.e., other companies outside of the Epic Hero's company) will have a Fight Value of 0.

Does that help clarify anything? :D Or is it still "clear as mud"? lol
Author:  Draugluin [ Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Terror, Heroes and a Confused player
I don't think a hero can call epic strike before being charged, seeing as Epic Strike is called in the fight phase, and he would only be charged in the charge phase. Or I guess this could happen with a heroic combat?
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