Me too. Rohan is given 5 in outmaneuvere but they just have cavalry like Gondor, they get it for one point less. Big deal. I would say an average would be a force with decent points cost and no cavalry. But Galdhrim would also get a 3 even though they have cavalry but the expensive troops cancel it out.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

I agree, manueverability is by far the trickiest. The problem is, almost all armies have cavalry of some sort, so "average" manueverability should include that. But then from there, who really deserves a 5? Rohan has many cavalry options, and thematically they are a nation that relies heavily on horses which is why they're percieved as having high manueverability, but you're right that they're not that much better than anyone else as far as actual gameplay goes. Harad seems like another high mobility choice because of cheap cavalry as well as the mumak, but again maybe not so much better that they deserve a 5. On the other hand, these do seem like the best armies for manueverability, so from that angle they should get a 5.

Offhand, an army of Mauhur's scouts with wart riders thrown in for support seems like they'd be the only other likely candidate for a 5.

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Well, that's my 2 cents.

What about Dol Guldur getting a high (if not the highest) masnueverability score. Wargs, Bats and Spiders would be tough even for Harad to keep up with.



And, Agincourt777, why give Galadrim a 2 in numbers? What army are they going to be able to, with any amount of consistancy, outnumber?

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Woodland Realms: 2382 pts: 18/08/2010

How about this Outmaneuver?

1 - Armies with less than 5in move
2 - Armies with 5in move
3 - Armies with 6in move but no cavalry
4 - Armies with 6in move and one type of cavalry
5 - Armies with 6in move and more than one type of cavalry

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

As I said already about DolGuldur, but now with some changes


out-class:3
out-shoot: 1
out-number:4
out-maneuver-5 (Dol Guldurs greatest advantage: Speed)


Out-Maneuver, this should take into accout, the movement of troops, Drummers, cavalry models (how cheap and how often fielded) and also how good the cavalry models (or a models moving similar to a cavalry models) are.... on it own, for an example Rohan has cheaper horses and some elites but SKODA and Morgul Knights best them any time...


Still i think that giant Spiders make the best "cavalry" models in the game, cause they have always 2 attacks no matter what, and have great strength... and for my knowledge there is no troop type with strength 4 that are able to carry a lance...(this would be better than strength 5)

Also Mahud Camels and Morgul Knights are very Devastating

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I am the Mouth of Sauron, here him speak'

Mahud camels have S4 and get a war spear...

Yes, and Mahud camels also get 2 attacks+ and a free strength 4 hit on the charge and they get knock to the ground. Sure a spider has 2 wounds but only D3, against most archers, only a 5+ would be needed to wound but on Mahud (D5) most archers will need 6 which is twice as hard to roll so it being twice as hard to wound and having 2 wounds cancel each-other out so IMO I think Mahud are better (can't remember how many points they are, though).

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

they are cheaper than high elves and could quite easily manage similar numbers to an all-monsters army, or even uruk hai.

take into account that they have wood elf warriors and galadhrim warriors who, although definitely not cheap, aren't massively expensive. there are plenty of more pricey evil troops, particularly new releases who have to be given some kind of super-stat to get sold, such as black guard or mahud.

i see you're point though, they should probably be 1.

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Hello.

Hmm well in that case Mahud are better as a cavalry model (sorry, I´m not so familiar with harad) but they only have 1 wound, so they are somehwat easily stoppable... (although it always depends)

AND i have to repeat myself over an over and over again: "Only a very stupid general would position his spiders so that they could get shot."

Mahud are cheaper how ever, those 3-5 pts, are not such a big issue for me...

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I am the Mouth of Sauron, here him speak'

Well I guess we should split Harad up into sections (Serpent Horde/Harad, Corsairs, and Mahud)

Mahud:

Outfight: 5 (Every Warriors has 2 attacks and an impressive staline)
Outshoot: 2 (Blowpipes have short range and low power)
Outnumber: 2 (Expensive troops and heroes)
Outmanouvre: 4 (Using General Ellesar's guide they have 6 inches movement and 1 type of cavalry)
Outlast: 3(/2?) (This is kind of tricky, if you are using a Maud King you have 4 Courage with 4 points to alter Courage tests with so even if you roll snake eyes you are safe for a turn with a doubled range, but Tribesmasters and standard warrios have the worst courage in the game.)

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Sun is by sea-men always hoped for,
when they fare away over the fishes' bath,
until the brine-stallion they bring to land.
OERP

Good call! Dol Guldur would make an excellent candidate for 5 outmanuever.

On rating Outmanuever, the problem is that most armies have 1 or 2 cavalry options, and by the proposed rating sytem the majority of armies would be ranking 4 or 5. Additionally, how many types of cavalry isn't really important, what counts is how much cavalry the army typically contains (and how fast that cavalry is). That's why I rank Rohan so high - when you think of a Rohirrim army you generally think of lots of cavalry and powerful mounted heroes. The collectibility of any cavalry models is important - you don't typically think of Easterlings as a high-manueverability force just because metal cavalry are so pricey.

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Well, that's my 2 cents.

I don't think Easterlings would have high outmaneuver anyway. The way I see outmaneuver is how the force is played as well as their cavalry. E.G

Easterlings:

Outfight:4 (very formidable dragon-knights and pikes)
Outshoot:3
Outnumber:3
Outmaneuvere:2
Outlast:4

I gave them 2 in outmaneuvere not because they have a slow move-rate or no cavalry, but because the way they are played, in big, scary, but very immobile blocks of pikes.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

You bring up another excellent point, and one that's much harder to quantify. The standard playstyle of a force is key to it's manueverability, though. And I would agree with you - Easterlings are a low mobility force as a result of their standard playstyle, not just because their cavalry are expensive. I do think that you might see fewer pike blocks and more cavalry, however, if there were plastic Kataphrakts (maybe bumping them from a 2 to a 3).

And of course, the rating system is just to give a general picture of the army, but as with almost any tabletop game you can still build a niche force with most lists (OK, so building an elite goblin army wouldn't be so easy, but the point being a player could make an elite infantry force of all Rohan Royal Guard on foot if he wanted to, it's just not the normal way of doing things).

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Well, that's my 2 cents.

That makes rating Outmaneuver almost impossible, as it basically depends on your opinion.

Fellowship of the Ring:
Outfight - 5
Outshoot - 2
Outmanuever - 3
Outnumber - 1
Outlast - 5

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Unfortunately, yeah. It's a blend of subjective judgement and too many variables, and most armies aren't consistent enought to deserve just one rating in the manueverability department. But hey, it's also an important category, so it seems that you would still want to include it, somehow or another.

For the Fellowship, I'm tempted to bump them up to at least a 3, maybe a 4, for shooting since Legolas is killer good, Aragorn is average, Gimli has throwing axes and Gandalf's sorcerous blasts can be quite useful as well. The thing that really hurts them here is just numbers. Everything else looks spot-on to me.

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Well, that's my 2 cents.

I think all these stats should be measured by a standard army of the race/civilization. E.G Rohan could have outfight 5 if they only took Sons of Eorl but no player would be expected to do so. As this is going to be a sticky, we might as well make some small army lists. This won't be able to cover everything in the army (like every Rohan army probably won't have Sons of Eorl) but these could be added in bracets next to the normal. Here for example.

Rohan (can't be bothered to count up the points now)

Captain with shield on horse
20 warriors, 8 shields, 8 shield and throwing spears, and 4 with bow
8 riders, 4 with throwing spears
5 rohan royal guard on horses, 2 with throwing spears

And stats:
Outfight:3 (pretty average everywhere but IDK if outfight should include cavalry)
Outshoot:4 (all riders have bows so a lot of shooting generally)
Outnumber:3
Outmaneuvere:5 (you can expect to find a lot of cavalry in a Rohan army)
Outlast:3

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

And Blinding Light as well. Yeah, it probably should be 3 or 4.

spuds4ever, is this going to be turned into a sticky? Who said so?

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Me. I suggested it but i didn't say it will be.



One of us will have to PM Dagorlad and we should make sure we have a good idea of what it should include before we do anything final. Although I like spuds4ever's thought on making a 'Average Army List' on each faction, but we have to be careful or else this might turn into a discussion about what should be in those lists.

_________________
Sun is by sea-men always hoped for,
when they fare away over the fishes' bath,
until the brine-stallion they bring to land.
OERP

Shall I ask Dagorlad if he would be willing to make a Sticky for this?

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Sounds like a plan...but rememeber there is still alot of work to be done on making all these lists.

_________________
Sun is by sea-men always hoped for,
when they fare away over the fishes' bath,
until the brine-stallion they bring to land.
OERP