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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:16 pm 
Elven Elder
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Thank you for you kind words Mr DOCdeath, I fully appreciate it. Play at as you want, in my local GW, we played it this way. I do not agree that the question has been answered and stand by what I said. However, I fully withdraw myself from this thread, and will make no further comments.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:51 pm 
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LOL to the comment DOCdeath!!! was that an accident and presumably was meant to be a private message?
oh well, i would like to thank forgotten lore for the comments in this thread, its made the H/E moves alot clearer in my mind and makes so much sense. thankyou again, and to you DOCdeath, don't worry, we all make mistakes :rofl:
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:54 pm 
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I agree but in a totally unbiased way!!!
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:13 pm 
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GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Thank you for you kind words Mr DOCdeath, I fully appreciate it. Play at as you want, in my local GW, we played it this way. I do not agree that the question has been answered and stand by what I said. However, I fully withdraw myself from this thread, and will make no further comments.


And that was exactly the response I wanted to avoid in this thread.

Like I said, I believe GothmogtheWerewolf's position stems from a misunderstanding of the rules not any maliciousness or willful misinterpretations.

That said, GothmogtheWerewolf, so far you haven't really provided any evidence for your position. You have repeated 7 (I think) times that you think it works your way but you have not once cited a single rule to support that position. I encourage you to either do so, or to show this thread to the people at your local store and get their opinion (out of curiosity, which GW do you go to?).
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:26 pm 
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Lets all try and play nice in the sandbox ok gentlmen? While I believe number 2 is the correct way gothmogs rule functions he also does not have to use it. Including him in a queue would then be disingenuous since this could be abused by both sides.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:09 pm 
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Jobu wrote:
Lets all try and play nice in the sandbox ok gentlmen? While I believe number 2 is the correct way gothmogs rule functions he also does not have to use it. Including him in a queue would then be disingenuous since this could be abused by both sides.

What do you mean Jobu?
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:33 am 
Elven Elder
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Although I said that I would not comment again, I have changed my mind. Thankyou ForgottennLore for your chivalry. I have though only twice said that it works well and once I believe I did sight evidence. Anyway, this is taken from the description of heroic actions:

Quote:
If both players wish to make Heroic actions in the same phase, then sides alternate picking a Hero to make a Heroic action. Roll a dice to randomly determine which side has the first pick - 1, 2 or 3 the Evil side goes first; 4, 5 or 6 the Good side goes first. Miight cannot be used to affect the resullt.


And here, I repeat what Gothmog's ability says:

Quote:
Whenever an enemy Hero calls a Heroic or Epic action within 12", Gothmog may immediatlycall an identical action without expending a Might point.


This shows that Gothmog is callling a Heroic/Epic action and hence follows the normal rules, which require a D6. Make of it what you will.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:55 pm 
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Quote:
If both players wish to make Heroic actions in the same phase, then sides alternate picking a Hero to make a Heroic action. Roll a dice to randomly determine which side has the first pick - 1, 2 or 3 the Evil side goes first; 4, 5 or 6 the Good side goes first. Miight cannot be used to affect the resullt.

That is the passage I used above, it shows that abilities do not happen simultaneously. Gothmog's ability has a pretty straightforward structure. Me calling an action enables you to call an action. Gothmog can't call an action until I do. If you roll off to determine who picks their action first (and Gothmog wins) then I haven't called an action yet. How are you calling an action that I haven't called yet? That is why Gothmog's action can't go first. I have to do something for you to use it, if you go first then I haven't done it yet and you can't go.
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:03 pm 
Elven Elder
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As logical as that sounds, i do not think that that was their intention.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:57 pm 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
Jobu wrote:
Lets all try and play nice in the sandbox ok gentlmen? While I believe number 2 is the correct way gothmogs rule functions he also does not have to use it. Including him in a queue would then be disingenuous since this could be abused by both sides.

What do you mean Jobu?


I will try an example. Player 1 has 3 heros, a b and c. Player 2 has gothmog within 12 inches of b and c. Player 1 wants to call an action with b and c, so declares he wants to make 2 actions( he does not have to specify which hero at this point ). Player 2 thinks/knows that at least one will fall under gothmog's special and uses gothmogs special to force a roll off. Player 1 loses the roll off, but STILL has to go first ( which is crazy ), since he lost he chooses to use an action with hero a, therefore getting to go first AND getting to go second since gothmog only acts immediately after and his special and he was not actually in the might queue. Player 1 may then call something that gothmog may not want to call. For EXAMPLE, epic rage, if gothmogs COMPANY is not engaged but his FORMATION is. Or epic cowerdice instead of heroic fight.

In this case forcing a roll off when gothmog is not in the might/action queue is, for me, hard to believe an intention the creators wanted.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:25 pm 
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OK, I thought you might mean something like that.

My read is that Gothmog's ability functions outside the normal alternating sequence. that's what the "immediately" part is doing. He doesn't have to declare an intention to call an action, he simply responds to what the enemy does. So say you have Aragorn and Boromir in a fight with Gothmog and Amdur

At the start of the fight phase both players declare their intention to spend might. (I don't see anything that says a player has to declare how much might or how many heroes they intend to use, just "I am spending might" (or not))
The players roll off. Good side wins.
Aragorn calls an Epic Duel vs Amdur
Evil player says he is using master of battle and has Gothmog call Epic Duel also, targeting Boromir.
Then the good player goes "Oh Devlan Mud, I forgot you could do that!!!" :sad:
Then the normal sequence resumes and the Evil player has Amdur call Epic Rampage
Then it is good's turn to call an action, if he so chooses, and so on.

Then the actions begin to be resolved
the first action to be called was the Duel between Aragorn and Amdur, so that resolves first
Those two heroes are now due to act so they have a chance to call "before they fight" actions. the good player declares that he is going to use might, but the evil player passes.
Aragorn calls an Epic Strike
Evil player says he is using master of battle and has Gothmog call Epic Strike as well
The good player is done, then the duel proceeds.

That is how I and my group plays it. I admit, there are a couple points that I am not positive are correct but they involve the heroes' eligibility to call actions, not the timing of any of them.
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:35 pm 
Elven Elder
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In my last game at GW Bolton it is Dwarves vs Angmar and we have used allies, there is a fight to the left flank, in one formation is Faramir, and fighting against him (in a smaller formation) is Gothmog and the Dwimmerlaik. Faramir calles Epic Strike and Heroic Duel against the Dwimmerlaik, then Gothmog calls both against Faramir for free, thenthe Dwimmerlaik calls Epic Strike and Faramir calls Epic Sacrifice. There is a roll of a D6 to decide which duel goes first. The good side wins it, and Faramir duels the Dwimmerlaik. Faramir loses but survives (some hits against his formation are discounted), and then Gothmog's duel against Faramir. This time Faramir wins but fails to kill Gothmog.

This is how we did it, I see no problems, the rules and the intentions of the designers indicate that this is the correct way to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:53 pm 
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Now is there anyone that still thinks Nazgul and Gothmog are even CLOSE to reasonably point costed in relation to most other models?

Don't mean to start that old argument again. Just unbelievable.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:04 pm 
Elven Elder
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I used them in an Angmar army to balance out the cost of the overcosted ghosts, spectres and werewolves.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:27 pm 
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GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
There is a roll of a D6 to decide which duel goes first.

This is how we did it, I see no problems, the rules and the intentions of the designers indicate that this is the correct way to do it.


The rules say

Quote:
...work out their actions in the order they were picked.


I don't see how you interpret that as "after everyone picks what actions they are doing, roll a D6 to see which happens first."

I don't even see how you come to the conclusion that the designers intended something different from what they wrote.



Then there is the whole issue about Heroic Duel/Heroic Fight/Epic Rampage and the like are not called at the same time as Epic Strike/Epic Sacrifice/Epic Defense and the like, but no one seemed to want to discuss that issue when I brought it up in another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=88&t=21664
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:38 am 
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I agree with this, my example was how gothmogs rule may be abused/mishandled by doing it another way. I do not think gothmog gets to force a roll off with his special ability since he is not spending might to get in the queue.

ForgottenLore wrote:
OK, I thought you might mean something like that.

My read is that Gothmog's ability functions outside the normal alternating sequence. that's what the "immediately" part is doing. He doesn't have to declare an intention to call an action, he simply responds to what the enemy does. So say you have Aragorn and Boromir in a fight with Gothmog and Amdur

At the start of the fight phase both players declare their intention to spend might. (I don't see anything that says a player has to declare how much might or how many heroes they intend to use, just "I am spending might" (or not))
The players roll off. Good side wins.
Aragorn calls an Epic Duel vs Amdur
Evil player says he is using master of battle and has Gothmog call Epic Duel also, targeting Boromir.
Then the good player goes "Oh [word deleted], I forgot you could do that!!!" :sad:
Then the normal sequence resumes and the Evil player has Amdur call Epic Rampage
Then it is good's turn to call an action, if he so chooses, and so on.

Then the actions begin to be resolved
the first action to be called was the Duel between Aragorn and Amdur, so that resolves first
Those two heroes are now due to act so they have a chance to call "before they fight" actions. the good player declares that he is going to use might, but the evil player passes.
Aragorn calls an Epic Strike
Evil player says he is using master of battle and has Gothmog call Epic Strike as well
The good player is done, then the duel proceeds.

That is how I and my group plays it. I admit, there are a couple points that I am not positive are correct but they involve the heroes' eligibility to call actions, not the timing of any of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:31 am 
Elven Elder
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Jobu wrote:
I agree with this, my example was how gothmogs rule may be abused/mishandled by doing it another way. I do not think gothmog gets to force a roll off with his special ability since he is not spending might to get in the queue.


Just because you think it affects game balance does not mean that it should not be played that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:13 pm 
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Ask yourself. Is he spending might? Since he is not spending might he is not in the Queue of actions to be called, therefore he can not force a roll off. Gotthmog's ability simply allows him to call an action of the same type time if he so chooses.
This-Whenever an enemy Hero calls a Heroic or Epic action within 12", Gothmog may immediately call an identical action without expending a Might point

Does not mean that gothmog gets to alter any other rule in the book. He does not spend might, he is not in the action queue at the beginning of the phase, so therefore he can not be in the roll off at the beginning of the phase to determine which side goes first. The only way one can interpret a roll off with gothmog's special would be with the hero who's action gothmog is matching. Where that occurs in the queue would depend on when the action is called. It may be called first it may be called last.

If the rule were to work how you think it works, gothmog could force a roll off and then not perform any action, thereby altering the queue without spending might. Or he must copy it since he forced a roll off to get in the queue.

So if a durburz player wants to call an action and a gothmog player says he will counter with his special rule, it would force a roll off. What will gothmog do if he wins? He is then has to perform that action performed by durburz. Then he may be forced to call an epic cowardice. Which he may not even be able to copy. Or what if it was faramir and he is forced to call an epic sacrifice.

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Jobu wrote:
I agree with this, my example was how gothmogs rule may be abused/mishandled by doing it another way. I do not think gothmog gets to force a roll off with his special ability since he is not spending might to get in the queue.


Just because you think it affects game balance does not mean that it should not be played that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:44 pm 
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Just because Gothmog doesn't expend might does not mean he has to wait. As for his coountering, when Gothmog's opponant declares they will do a heroic/epic action, they say what it is and then Gothmog's controller decides whether or not they want to copy it. (I played against Farimir sacrifice)

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:29 pm 
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My previous examples were a little off, a player needs to indicate which hero will call the action, however the player does NOT have to say which action they are using. Since when does your opponent have to tell you what he is doing? Since gothmogs rule does not come into play UNTIL a hero defines the action they are taking, gothmog can not be in the might queue since he has not used might and can not force a roll off through his special rule. Gothmog simply breaks the queue and the action he is calling goes immediately after the other hero's.

In your interpretation, gothmog's special forces a roll off, gothmogs player has indicated( by forcing a roll off ) that they are using gothmogs special, therefore he HAS to call whatever action the opposing hero is calling. One can not have it both ways, gothmog either uses his special or he does not. He can not use it to force a roll off and then not copy, he has used it. Doing that is in the same vein as calling epic challenge and not using might to reach the hero that was challenged.

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Just because Gothmog doesn't expend might does not mean he has to wait. As for his coountering, when Gothmog's opponant declares they will do a heroic/epic action, they say what it is and then Gothmog's controller decides whether or not they want to copy it. (I played against Farimir sacrifice)

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