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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:52 am 
Wayfarer
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Newbie question : Rohan Cav have bows. There is a limit de 1/3 of bows per army. How can you make an all cav list. I must be missing something. Unless if you take a spear you loose the bow?

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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:50 am 
Ringwraith
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Only RoR have bows, but...the recent FAQ that came out after the Hobbit book was released states that RoR don't count towards the bow limit. No more wasted points! :)
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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:31 pm 
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whafrog wrote:
Only RoR have bows, but...the recent FAQ that came out after the Hobbit book was released states that RoR don't count towards the bow limit. No more wasted points! :)


Sweet ! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:11 pm 
Kinsman
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I don't have erkenbrand yet, so I think making an all cavalry list is useless (for now).
But I really like the idea of fielding an all cavalry Rohan army!
Will check this thread for future reference ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:39 pm 
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To be brutally honest building any Rohan army without old Erk is practically pointless.
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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:10 pm 
Kinsman
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I won a battle tuesday without Erkenbrand ;D
My friend didn't have an ideal Mordor list either, but it was balanced after all.
But I understand your comment, Erkenbrand and Grimbold give your troops a welcome boost :)

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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:18 am 
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Just playing Devil's advocate ever so slightly (I have Erkenbrand in my all cavalry list and use him) but I would disagree that without his upgrade the all cavalry concept is useless.

I would agree that if you are building a Rohan army, that upgrading your cavalry by taking Erkenbrand makes sense at his points, just like upgrading your warriors makes sense by taking Grimbold. Pretty standard. As SuicidalMarsbars says, pointless not to take him and his upgrade.

However, I would argue the +1 fight with the cavalry upgrade isn't the linchpin on which an all cavalry force depends for Rohan.

The strength of the Riders of Rohan from my experience is maneuverability and therefore using it to choose who you fight and when. You can dictate the pace of the game. Secondly, it's the extra attack on the charge. I'd take an extra dice in the fight over a higher fight value all day long. If you can guarantee the charge and pick your targets so you have more dice in each fight than your opponent, then that is a significant advantage. Coupled with their range and bow fire, this is always possible. You can pick off enemies, force them onto you and choose to charge when you feel the odds favour you. You are in control (my experience so far!)

And most significant of all in my opinion is the knockdown upon the winning of the fight. The doubling of your 'to wound' dice makes fielding cavalry very worthwhile, if you don't try to play them like infantry or simply go all 'charge of the lightbrigade.' Your force can become very killy very quickly and you can really hurt you enemy with well calculated charges.

With the moving and shooting penalty, i think it's worth taking 1/3rd outriders. It appears to me to be very difficult to commit all your riders to a charge at the same time anyway and it is better to instead cover them with riders that can counter should your own be countered or you cannot heroic move them away.

Since much of the required tactic is movement and skirmish, outriders are for winners. Combine that with the relatively small force you have to take when going all-mounted, their special standfast rule can make them key if your force is broken and spread around the board (objectives/targets)

So whilst I agree that not taking Erkenbrand's doesn't make sense (unless all your opponent's are f5+ ...elves for example) I would actually argue that the success of the all cavalry force comes from -

1) Ability to pick your fights (maneauverability/range)
2) The extra dice on the charge
3) The knockdown upon winning the fight

That's just from my own limited experience with them. There are many things I haven't encountered yet, including coming up against other cavalry or masses of enemy bows but in the encounters that I've had, it hasn't been the +1 fight that has had the biggest impact. There is a 1/6 chance that a duel role will be drawn so one in six fights will be decided by fight value.

(I'm not saying fight value isn't important. It is and has played a large part in all of our games, allowing us to rib Hashut for his statement that it doesn't... But I wouldn't say that Erky's upgrade or a lack of it in fact prevents Riders of Rohan from being effective. Besides, my 500pt all cav rohan currently includes 16 riders of rohan. The upgrade costs the same as a mounted RRG, or just less than a rider with throwing spear...)

One for everyone to ponder!

My favourite Rohirrim hero I've played with so far is Eomer, KotP... really feels like a machine, 4 x str5 on the charge... it's a nice feeling having a powerhouse of a hero :)

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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:13 pm 
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All good points thermo, but yesterday i played a game against an all proxy army (they didn't own a single model in their lists - about 3 different things being represented by orc models) so my team and i were sort of bound to lose. However, Erkenbrand allowed us to survive alot longer for a number of reasons:

First off, he is 65 points, and is fight 5, defence 7, and has 3 might. That is a great statline for those points and he actually survived right up until the last turn because of his defence 7, despite almost always being outnumbered. His fight 4 was also mucho useful.

The +2 courage meant the enemy wraiths could be charged by just about all of our models, and that is a pretty huge deal.

Finally, the fight 4 upgrade meant that, even when charged by enemy cavalry while already on the floor, my guys could shield, and actually have a better chance of winning the fight.

When you are in a situation where the enemy can use their 'dream army' and you've restricted yourself to your collection, Erkenbrand is the sort of model that really proves he is worth infinitely more than his points value. I know that getting more attacks for charging is more important, but in a situation where you don't get the charge, you NEED the extra fight. Also, unlike Grimbold, who really isn't worth his points if he didn't upgrade your warriors, Erkenbrand is one of the 'cheapest' models for what he does.
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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:36 pm 
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I don't disagree :) In fact, your post touches on an argument about Erkenbrand which I failed to mention... how his +2C horn is included in those points is astonishing!

As well his own statline, it makes him a great hero for his points! Which is why I include him too :)

My point, playing Devil's advocate, was more against any assumption that rohan cavalry is pointless without him, my post pointing to the area which I have found to be the most advantageous with all mounted rohan, with the fight value being further down the list.

Is fight 4 better than fight 3 and worth a point per man? Undoubtedly, in my eyes. Is it the key ingredient that makes an all mounted rohirrim force viable? In my opinion, no, for the aforementioned reasons.

In fact, even being a player who wasn't involved pre 'RoR bows don't count towards bow limit' I can see how this change makes them infintely more viable than previously, even with the move-1shoot rules.

But I agree, Erkenbrand is great for the points, with or without the upgrade :)

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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Here Here....Hes def on my list wouldnt leave home without him, lol
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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:28 pm 
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Thermo wrote:
The strength of the Riders of Rohan from my experience is maneuverability


I hear it is riding around in circles for a few hours :lol:


Back on topic: As it has been said before, too many riders can sometimes hurt you unless you are clever enough to position them so they are out of range of the enemy but in charge range for the next turn. Hit and run as they say. Charge in, kill (possibly) then fall back, re-group and charge again next turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Quote:
I hear it is riding around in circles for a few hours


Consider your source... and the result! :lol: Worked at Carrhae!

Even earnt me a visit from the shadow lord in the last game :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:25 pm 
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At that 300pt tournament i played probably the best Rohan player i have ever come across. He was using a force of pure foot soldiers with Grimbold and Gamling. He REFUSED to get into any combats and spent the whole game retreating and throwing spears all over the shop. He apologized for playing like that, but there was no need, it was great seeing Rohan played effectively - and was a pleasure to play.
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 Post subject: Re: Future All Cav Rohan 500pts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:31 pm 
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SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
At that 300pt tournament i played probably the best Rohan player i have ever come across. He was using a force of pure foot soldiers with Grimbold and Gamling. He REFUSED to get into any combats and spent the whole game retreating and throwing spears all over the shop. He apologized for playing like that, but there was no need, it was great seeing Rohan played effectively - and was a pleasure to play.


Sounds like you'd love me! When shall we meet for a game?!

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