Spears vs Cavalry

Balin son of Fundin · **Posted:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:34 pm

Do you Think spears+pikes should have a +1 on duel roles versus mounted models?

JamesR · **Posted:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:35 pm

Id say no because they already neutralize the Cav bonus of an extra attack. And pike Walls are particularly deadly for Cav

SouthernDunedain · **Posted:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:43 pm

What James said. You ever seen a warg rider charge a galadhrim pike block? Not pretty lol. They don't need +1.

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

Absolutely, Cavalry are already underpowered and most won't stand a chance against a pike block as it is.

Thermo · **Posted:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:13 pm

I say bring it on!

In all seriousness, getting the extra dice negates the charge bonus and cavalry rely on having the odds in their favour in the fights, not fighting equal.

Balin son of Fundin · **Posted:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:49 pm

I didnt necesarrily mean +1 Attacks just +1 on duel rolls so a 5 becomes a 6 ect...But thanks anyway!

JamesR · **Posted:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:13 pm

Balin son of Fundin wrote:

I didnt necesarrily mean +1 Attacks just +1 on duel rolls so a 5 becomes a 6 ect...But thanks anyway!

We all understood that lol. And our unanimous answer (In reference to Dr Grant, SD, Thermo, and myself) is that they already negate the cavalry bonus so let's not penalize Cavalry further. Life's tough enough for our mounted friends :-D

Pindergorn · **Posted:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:08 pm

I think cavalry should gain a single impact hit at the Strength of the steed when charging over 5".

JamesR · **Posted:** Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:03 am

King Ondoher wrote:

I think cavalry should gain a single impact hit at the Strength of the steed when charging over 5".

But shouldn't the horse also take the same hit? They're tough but they'll feel it too. I'm content to ignore both of these

whafrog · **Posted:** Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:11 am

What's the difference between Disagree and "It's fine how it is"?

I agree that cavalry already have a hard enough time. They're reasonably effective on the charge, but it's the counter-charge that nails you. I always thought they should cause Terror for infantry if they charge, but that's too much additional dice rolling. Letting spears skewer them even more means there's little point to cavalry at all.

rumtap · **Posted:** Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:22 am

whafrog wrote:

What's the difference between Disagree and "It's fine how it is"?

I agree that cavalry already have a hard enough time. They're reasonably effective on the charge, but it's the counter-charge that nails you. I always thought they should cause Terror for infantry if they charge, but that's too much additional dice rolling. Letting spears skewer them even more means there's little point to cavalry at all.

I agree with Whafrog. Cav have it tough, that base size is a killer, go in charge a model then get surrounded by his mates.

If anything i think cav models should get a bonus to defence.

Tezzy · **Joined:** Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:42 am **Posts:** 160

I think the real question should be... how is the spear any better at killing a horse than a sword?

Though on the idea of cavalry homebrew, I like the Str 5 hit idea. This to me would represent the horse trampling over the foes, not the horse chest bumping orcs or something XD. Personally though I would just drop it down to the strength of the mount.

Balin son of Fundin · **Posted:** Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:16 am

Tezzy wrote:

I think the real question should be... how is the spear any better at killing a horse than a sword?

Though on the idea of cavalry homebrew, I like the Str 5 hit idea. This to me would represent the horse trampling over the foes, not the horse chest bumping orcs or something XD. Personally though I would just drop it down to the strength of the mount.

Surely a spear is better as you can point the spear at the horse when they charge in...whereas a sword is much shorter range and the rider has to be alot closer to you.
...Unless you throw the sword... :puppy:

Gondorian Captain · **Joined:** Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:13 pm **Posts:** 267

Spears and pikes are your classic best weapons against horses and later long bayonets on firearms. The reason for this is a horse is less stupid than its rider. The rider may want to charge into glorious battle, the horse will not willingly impale itself on pointy metal objects.

That said making spears any better against cavalry in the game isn't needed, essentially they all ready provide the historical effect.
If a warrior is supported by a spearman the cavalry have a hard time.
One warrior alone without someone behind him with a spear (even if he has a spear himself) is not going to be as effective as two warriors...so effectively infantry get rewarded for forming supported ranks against cavalry (as well as most other things).

If anything I'd make cavalry SLIGHTLY cheaper or put back the rules for loose mounts and remounting. In all honestly I don't think that second one would be great for the game but in the current state of play a cavalry force is one nature's wrath or a couple of monsters away from being an infantry force.

whafrog · **Posted:** Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:56 pm

Gondorian Captain wrote:

If anything I'd make cavalry SLIGHTLY cheaper or put back the rules for loose mounts and remounting. In all honestly I don't think that second one would be great for the game but in the current state of play a cavalry force is one nature's wrath or a couple of monsters away from being an infantry force.

The simplest might be to make horses S4 like wargs. Then the rider can use the mount's strength.

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

Or make charging horses S5, that way the bonus is only on the charge and you don't have to worry about making extra rolls for impact hits etc.

whafrog wrote:

What's the difference between Disagree and "It's fine how it is"?

Indeed, it's splitting the 'no' vote! It's essentially 15-5 at the mo! :-)

whafrog wrote:

I always thought they should cause Terror for infantry if they charge, but that's too much additional dice rolling.

This is a great idea, a while back I wrote up a few rules that attempted to make a fluffy all mouthed Rohan list (i.e. not just replacing all the Riders of Rohan with Sons of Eorl) competitive and one of them was that if your entire army was mounted (think the relief of Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith) then you whole army caused terror. Just to attempt to prevent the inevitable counter charging.

Another idea I had was that an Expert Rider's horse never left the battlefield (loyal to their master blah, blah blah) so if they were Nature's Wrathed, Hurled, Sorcerous Blasted etc. and the model survived, you just placed the cav model on its side and it got up next turn.

Tezzy · **Joined:** Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:42 am **Posts:** 160

Gondorian Captain wrote:

Spears and pikes are your classic best weapons against horses and later long bayonets on firearms. The reason for this is a horse is less stupid than its rider. The rider may want to charge into glorious battle, the horse will not willingly impale itself on pointy metal objects.

Armies from every generation had pointy metal objects! The real history behind cavalry is that they are a shock unit, and don't charge like Rohan charges in the movies :rofl:

Spears and pikes were anti-everything that didn't have longer range. But they lacked mobility and turning, which is how cavalry defeated these tools in combat. If cavalry could come from the side, the formation can't turn easily, and the men would try to retreat! And a retreating unit is also where cavalry excel

But since LotR SBG is a skirmish game, I don't flanking a model should matter, and like I explained, spears and pikes were never intended to "counter cavalry." They are intended to counter infantry, and in that regard they work great!

GWvsJohn · **Joined:** Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:30 pm **Posts:** 62

Tezzy wrote:

Gondorian Captain wrote:

Spears and pikes are your classic best weapons against horses and later long bayonets on firearms. The reason for this is a horse is less stupid than its rider. The rider may want to charge into glorious battle, the horse will not willingly impale itself on pointy metal objects.

Armies from every generation had pointy metal objects! The real history behind cavalry is that they are a shock unit, and don't charge like Rohan charges in the movies :rofl:

Spears and pikes were anti-everything that didn't have longer range. But they lacked mobility and turning, which is how cavalry defeated these tools in combat. If cavalry could come from the side, the formation can't turn easily, and the men would try to retreat! And a retreating unit is also where cavalry excel

But since LotR SBG is a skirmish game, I don't flanking a model should matter, and like I explained, spears and pikes were never intended to "counter cavalry." They are intended to counter infantry, and in that regard they work great!

Additionally, spears are exceptionally easy to use. Professional soldiers are quite happy with swords, but when you conscript farmers to fight for you, a spear will get the job done best.

VandalCabbage · **Joined:** Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:12 pm **Posts:** 286

Some of the most powerful armies of medieval times were those that had easy-to-use weapons. The longbowmen of Edward Longshanks were all very nice, but it took a lifetime of training to be any good. It was pikes and crossbows (and later early handguns) that really revolutionised warfare.

I think that infantry v.s. cavalry works well enough, since you can still bring attacks to the table. As for cavalry themselves, the counter charge thing simply requires timing priority and might points. Considering how difficult it was for commanders to keep their horsemen (often the modern equivalent of the upper class or at least upper middle class) in line, this makes sense. The Roman word for banker actually came from their word for knight.

NarsilReforged · **Joined:** Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:13 am **Posts:** 316

I reckon realistically spears & pikes should be better at killing cavalry but in this game it would probably make them underpowered as nearly everyone takes spears and some pikes which effectively counter the high-costing cav.

Spears vs Cavalry

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