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Which army?
1 8%  8%  [ 1 ]
2 58%  58%  [ 7 ]
3 25%  25%  [ 3 ]
4 8%  8%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 12
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 Post subject: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:40 pm 
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Serious for competition 750pt Isengard!!!

I have 4 armies to choose from. Also, give tips. One thing- NO Saruman. I am not the type of player at 750 pts to put a model on the field thats nearly a quarter of my army.

This was my original prototype if you will:
Captain with heavy armor and 2 handed weapon
2 feral Uruk Hai
4 Uruks with Crossbow
6 Uruks with shield
Leader-Mauhur
2 feral Uruk Hai
4 Uruks with Crossbow
5 Uruks with shield
Warband:
Leader-Vrasku
2 feral Uruk Hai
4 Uruks with Crossbow
6 Uruks with
Warband: shield
Leader-Ugluk
2 feral Uruk Hai
4 Uruks with Crossbow
6 Uruks with shield
750 pts.
10 might, 51 models
18 crossbow bolts per round

===========================================
ARMY # 2
Vrasku-
4 uruk crossbow
5 uruk shield
3 feral
Mauhur-
4 uruk crossbow
5 uruk shield
3 feral
Sharku on warg w shield
4 uruk crossbow
5 uruk shield
3 feral
Shaman-
4 uruk crossbow
5 uruk shield
3 feral
9 might
52 models
18 crossbow bolts possible per round

====================================================
ARMY #3
Vrasku-
6 uruk crossbows
6 uruk shield
Mauhur-
6 Marauders
6 Marauders w shield
Uruk Shaman-
6 orcs spear
6 feral uruk hai
Sharku-
6 crossbows
6 orcs w shield
Orc Captain w sheld
5 uruk crossbows
11 might
58 models
19 crossbow bolts per round

==============================================
ARMY #4
Vrasku
6 crossbows
6 feral
Mauhur
6 crossbows
6 berserkers
Orc Captain
1 troll
6 uruk shield
3 crossbows
2 orc spears
Orc Captain
5 orcs spear
4 uruk shields
1 feral
9 might
50 models
15 crossbows per round


Personally, I like 2 or 3. 2 is definitely my favorite.

Im not big on trolls or monsters so I threw one in a later list just to see opinion. And I do like list 2 because its all Uruk and no soft orc counterparts. Please vote, and above all tell me what you'd change.

A few notes:
-dont care for wargs
-NO SARUMAN
-dont care for monsters
-want to keep at least 12 crossbows but prefer 14+
-prefer feral to berserkers all day but I own 0 ferals so I may add a few to let my opponent see different targets
-more than likely I will use Vrasku and Mauhur in my army, so I wouldnt both to advise me against it.

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Last edited by LordoftheBrownRing on Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worth of Mordor
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:02 pm 
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why so few spears/pikes?
you are certainly going to need some to be competitive
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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worth of Mordor
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:06 pm 
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As Bernando said, where are the pikes? Isengard are one of the few armies with them, you should take advantage of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worth of Mordor
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:07 pm 
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Because I have the 2 attack models in there and I figure ill have the numerical advantage by the time I get to combat with the crossbows. Ill cut through elves and still have the tough models to take on men and dwarves.

Pikes are so sloppy. I might as well add orc spears if I add them because a nice pike formation is good and all, but they cluster and take more effort than its worth to try to position them to get all the attacks. Then you get flanked anyway.....just my thought on it.

Well anyway then what do you guys suggest to replace to add pikes?

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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worth of Mordor
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:41 pm 
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Army 2 is the best thanks to the shaman. Keep the xbows together - give vrasku's watband 12 xbows and Sharku the other 6. I would advise Sharley and Worm at this points level if you don't want the white wizard. The lists look buff though, 50 uruks is alot to take on, with any luck you will do really well.
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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:11 am 
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Im not saying this in a negative manner but why does everyone suggest I always put the crossbows all together? Im trying to keep them with shield Uruks in front of them and also seperate them so they dont get swarmed or possibly just put too close to the battle lines and all.

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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:19 am 
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Because it is a proven tactic on the GBHL scene. Your crossbows can only get swarmed in one scenario out of 6 and even then, they are still better fighters than most troops. You ask for advice but you arnt flexible with your lists. Saruman and grima work a treat at 750. Not only will your heroes be transfixed but they'll have half might aswell. Well worth the investment IMO.
Also a pike block isn't hard to position and it is far more effective than puny Orc spears.

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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:24 am 
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LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
Im not saying this in a negative manner but why does everyone suggest I always put the crossbows all together? Im trying to keep them with shield Uruks in front of them...


Well, that bit in bold would be one reason why. Putting shields in front of your xbows means your shields can't move...or you decide you have to move them (maybe to intercept an incoming force), and suddenly they're in your line of fire. Xbows are a bit harder to work with, you need to pick a perch early and stay there. It's bad enough 1/3 of your army is mostly immobile, you don't want to impose that immobility on another 1/3.

With bows it's different, you can still advance or retreat, shifting tactically while retaining the ability to shoot, in which case covering your bows with shielded warriors can still work.
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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:58 am 
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Not offering advice here but picking up on one comment that has got me thinking.

SouthernDunedain said:
Quote:
Your crossbows can only get swarmed in one scenario out of 6


Real wars have a lot more than six 'scenarios', even if you categorise them broadly. Power gaming is something I dislike, ie exploiting the structure and mechanics of a game to the point where the spirit of gaming is lost. The best games are those where, when armies face one another, victory, defeat or a draw are not foregone conclusions. I thought WH40K was the most 'cheesey' game in terms of employing strange tactics that are within the rules but are utterly ridiculous and unsporting. Even WW2 games get some of this though on a much lesser scale as army lists for any given campaign/period reflect what was available and how common it might be. Otherwise German tank armies would be wall to wall Tigers...

Back to my point: surely a bit of creative thinking could lead to more scenarios, and if the selection of these were randomised, then army choices would have to be more balanced. If victory could be secured through outmanouvre or seizing something instead of two forces battering one another to pieces, it would add flavour.

Just a thought guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:20 am 
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That's hardly powergaming, just one general giving advice to another that the possibility of their army being scattered would leave the crossbows vulnerable. GW keeps the scenario count to a reasonable number cause it fits on a six-sided dice.

If wargames were a true representation of real warfare they would be nearly unplayable because of the factors you would have to take into account; disease (dysentery or veneral? How does it affect your troops in combat and out?, You yourself might drop dead of the plague) religion (is the battle on a sunday? is one section of your army one religion, the other another? how does that affect them? how do they feel about the afterlife, or fighting others of the same religion, or even fighting at all?) and chain of command (how likely are your soldiers to desert, even to join the other side, or simply to ignore your orders?). The list goes on and on.

This game is an abstraction, but it will take years of stat creep and a much, much,much worse player-base than it currently has to make it anywhere near as bad as 40K in terms of powergaming.

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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:00 am 
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How on earth is grouping archers together in ANY way powergaming? It is a valid piece of tactical advice, and SD was only counter arguing the OP's concern that a warband of archers would be swamped by pointing out there is only one in game instance where that may be the case (hold ground). Really not sure why people who are helping someone who has asked for advice are being accused of power gaming.

Also, surely grouping archers together is far more historically accurate than mixing them in with heavy infantry and pikes, if so, then why go down the whole 'in real wars' path when SD's advice is far more in line with what real medieval armies would do?
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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:48 pm 
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First off, my apologies for being not being sufficiently clear.
I have not accused anyone here of powergaming and I am sorry if that was how it was interpreted. This comment is not directed at how troops are deployed, armed or the balance of forces you choose to work with.
I specifically highlighted the quote referring to the limit of six scenarios because frankly I feel that such a narrow limitation on the types of game could insidiously promote an element of power gaming. I am not advocating the introduction of disease, religion, superstition, treachery or any of the other unpalatable charms of war down the ages. If anyone out there wants to, feel free... there are historical and modern systems that do include these but they tend to be used by historians, military personnel, disaster planning agencies and such who do have to deal with the grim reality of such events.
But, back to Middle-earth...
In all the years I have been on this site (and a couple of others in the past including TLA and TheWhiteCity), members have come up with a host of alternative scenarios that are in keeping with the settings of Middle-earth, but provide a different range of tactical constraints and possibilities to all sides (I say all as some of the scenarios could involve a three way fight).
So how could this be implemented within the limitations of D6 scenario selection. I have a very simple proposal: use 2 D6 to select a scenario randomly off a table - 1 D6 for across, and the other D6 for up/down.
That gives 36 possibilities, but (hearing the screams and howls) we do not need 30 new scenarios to add to the 6 already available.
I would propose randomly allocating each of the 6 existing scenarios to 4 places on the grid, so that takes care of 24 out of the 36 selections.
To that I would add 3 new scenarios that are still fairly straightforward in concept, but not the same as any of the original 6; each of these 3 would have 2 slots on the grid.
The final 6 slots would be created as 6 separate scenarios where the boundaries could be pushed a bit - asymetrical force sizes, a totally different board shape (eg., very long but thin for a sort of 'chase' battle).
To summarise, instead of having the current situation of a 1:6 chance of a given scenario, it becomes:
1:9 for any given one of the original 6 scenarios
1:18 for any given example of the 3 new but still fairly bog-standard scenarios
1:36 for any particular one of the 'extreme' scenarios (like the Nine chasing Arwen or Glorfindel carrying Frodo to Imladris)

On a historical note, grouping all the foot archers (some ride horses too, you know) in an army together in a single unit was used in some instances, but certainly not throughout all of history, and not even within the same armies in the same campaigns. There are plenty of references out there if you want to check them for yourselves.

So sorry again for lack of clarity, and for droning on a bit about my mad notions of trying to make the game a bit more exciting.

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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:55 pm 
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whafrog wrote:
LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
Im not saying this in a negative manner but why does everyone suggest I always put the crossbows all together? Im trying to keep them with shield Uruks in front of them...


Well, that bit in bold would be one reason why. Putting shields in front of your xbows means your shields can't move...or you decide you have to move them (maybe to intercept an incoming force), and suddenly they're in your line of fire. Xbows are a bit harder to work with, you need to pick a perch early and stay there. It's bad enough 1/3 of your army is mostly immobile, you don't want to impose that immobility on another 1/3.

With bows it's different, you can still advance or retreat, shifting tactically while retaining the ability to shoot, in which case covering your bows with shielded warriors can still work.


Thank you. Very good advice. And yeah generally I was planning on having some cover for the crossbows while they either get into position or in case they are caught close to the enemy.

I mean, in my eyes I say, what happens if I roll poorly, and the enemy catches my crossbow unit of 12 with Vrasku right next to the enemy's warband of Knights of Rivendell, or Corsair Bo Sun with 12 reavers? Maybe even 2-3 swarms of goblins or a Shelob with a warband of Numenorians in front? I feel like at that point Ill be able to take out like 3-5 of their models before my whole unit is decimated. If on the other hand I mix it up, some shields, a combat hero, and some ferals can deal better against something like that.

And another thing....I have no proof, but I believe there will be many dwarves and elves because of the hobbit list. This means close combat monsters to come smash me or guys with shooting that can light me up. I did a practice roll thing with an army of elves and uruk crossbows just like the 1800 line shooting style of war. 2 out of two times the elves won heavily or drew with a slight advantage against the uruks. When the uruks had shields in front they obliterated the elves both times.

This included Vrasku and on the other side Legolas, Haldir, and Tauriel shooting!

So yeah.

Since everyone seems to be yelling about wargaming, do you have any advice on pikes? You seem to have good advice.

SouthernDunedain wrote:
Because it is a proven tactic on the GBHL scene. Your crossbows can only get swarmed in one scenario out of 6 and even then, they are still better fighters than most troops. You ask for advice but you arnt flexible with your lists. Saruman and grima work a treat at 750. Not only will your heroes be transfixed but they'll have half might aswell. Well worth the investment IMO.
Also a pike block isn't hard to position and it is far more effective than puny Orc spears.


Of course pikes are better than orc spears theyre also about twice the cost. Im just trying to balance it. They also are susceptible to bowfire as much as a 6 pt orc. Thats why I just put weak orc support for the attack and shy away from piked but I am open to suggestions of sizes and pt amounts if someone would actually say some.

In terms of flexibility....I provided 2 heros I said im putting in for sure and 1 I didnt want to use. That leaves a remaining 9 heros to mix in or out....so if you think thats not flexible, I dont know what to say lol. Maybe you think I wont use Sharkey but thats clearly a different profile and didnt say no to him.

And I said I want a minimum of crossbows. Other than that the whole list is up for debate.....so I dont know what youre getting at.

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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:06 pm 
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If you don't want wargs, why is Sharku in your army alone? It's a bad strategic call.

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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:21 pm 
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Goldman25 wrote:
If you don't want wargs, why is Sharku in your army alone? It's a bad strategic call.


Sharku doesn't have to be mounted, and being named, has 1 extra Might. Plus he's an Orc, so he's a bit cheaper. I wouldn't say it's a bad call.
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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:26 pm 
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I didn't know you could take Sharku without a warg. He still has one in Army 2 though, and no-one else does

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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:39 pm 
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Where an I supposed to put the last model I spent the warg pts on? 4 warbands of 12 guys.

Not to mention I dont want warg riders like 5-9 or so wasting pts when theyre easy to kill and cost. Giving a hero a mount is a totally different story.

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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:55 pm 
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LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
Of course pikes are better than orc spears theyre also about twice the cost. Im just trying to balance it. They also are susceptible to bowfire as much as a 6 pt orc. Thats why I just put weak orc support for the attack and shy away from piked but I am open to suggestions of sizes and pt amounts if someone would actually say some.


Spears are cheaper, but they don't allow you to leverage your strengths, they dilute it. You're trading numbers so that each Duel is less effective. That *can* work if, say, you have a lot of ground to cover, but it generally doesn't give a better outcome.

Getting a 3rd die in a fight in this game is critical, you get compounding returns. 3 uruks have better odds than 2 elves of winning, and it gets better as your opponent's fight decreases. It's common (at least in my games) for a warband of uruks to wipe out a warband of WoMT and not suffer a single casualty, if the WoMT player tries to go toe to toe (as my friend learned to his chagrin). And not only do you win more fights, you multiply the odds of wounding...it's almost a certainty that in 3 dice you're going to a roll a 5 or better to wound, and if not, well, you won the fight anyway so you can't be killed.

If you have just 2 dice (uruk + orc spear), the odds of stagnation increase, you can effectively be held off by a single model that is shielding, even if it's a lowly WoMT. You might still win the Duel, but you're less likely to kill it. Plus, stagnant lines just give the opponent a chance to regroup.

Lastly, Orcs run faster in the end game, and since they're spear support, they're less likely to die in combat, and might be all you have left if you break.

So yes, pikes will give you fewer warriors. You need to protect them, and also you need to learn where to use them to best effect...concentration is the key.

Coming up with a points list is tedious :) but a general formula I've found that works alright is something like 3 groups (not warbands, but tactical groups):
A) 1/3 xbows
B) 1/2 shield + pikes, ie: 1/6 shields, 1/3 pikes
C) 1/6 shields and/or bezerkers/ferals on the flanks

You don't want a tight pike block, because you can get trapped if things go wrong, but wherever you have a pike line you want to protect its flanks with members of group C. Sometimes all group C is for is shielding on the flanks to hold positions, and replacing the shields in group B.

You do have quite a few ferals in your list, and it might make sense to pair them with orc spears because you still get that 3rd die. Adding a 4th with pikes might be tempting...more is better, right?...but 3 dice is a sweet spot in terms of the intersection of odds and resource allocation. 4 dice give diminishing returns (which is one reason why few heroes have 4 attacks). But berzerkers/ferals are still 1 Wound models, and it's a big loss when they're taken out and all you have left is an orc spear. Besides, IMHO ferals are too soft to put in a front line like that, since anyone except hobbits can kill them on a 5.
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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:56 pm 
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Goldman25 wrote:
I didn't know you could take Sharku without a warg. He still has one in Army 2 though, and no-one else does


What is Army 2? Anyway, I looked it up in Fallen Realms before posting, so I'm pretty sure :)
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 Post subject: Re: Build me an army worthy of Mordor
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:09 pm 
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I dont know what hes saying about nobody else but I have my armies numbered.

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