hi
I play galadhrim elves. A few days ago i was playing a game and my galadhrim knights charged a formation of three company strong moria goblins. at the start of the fight phase, he failed his terror test and i called a heroic duel with my captain against his captain and i won by about 10 because he had 0 fight. is this right, or do we do terror tests after heroic duels?

That is right. Ripping your enemy to shreds in the duel after a failed terror test is how you keep your fragile elves alive and operating throughout a battle. Otherwise the attrition tends to go against you.

When they fail, don't hold back with the challenges, and remember you can have multiple duels in the same combat.

thanks and luckily i didn't even need to call another duel because i managed to wipe out the whole formation of goblins without even having to fight so then with galadriel should i use spells to lower courage, then charge, then call heroic duels when they fail their terror test?

Yeah...and if you really want to have fun see how well this happens when you're using Galadriel's war-aspect form. Your Fight 10 vs. their Fight 0 before a single die is thrown. Since this resolves before the Fight it's a good way to weaken an enemy Formation. With combat being simultaneous and most Elves having pretty low Defense it's important to limit the number of dice that are going to be cast against you.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Yes, Galadriel (the spellcaster) is one of the more important characters for elves, due to her almost unique access to Dismay and Command. Gandalf is the only other epic hero in Good with access to that. Light of the Valar lowers courage first, with a focus roll of 2+. Then use Dismay to lower their Courage again with Sunder Spirit (3+ focus roll). Transfix, Visions of Woe, or Terrifying Aura are all good as the finisher.

Yup yup, and when combined with Celeborn you have a tag team that can happily slice through a large portion of your enemies army. Anything they can't slice through is just reduced to a gibbering wreck.

They work well in your standard Galadhrim formation because they tend to be your most numerous and therefore benefit the most from Celeborn's most awsome rules. However if you sit them both in a unit of Guardians of Caras Galadhon then I find you have a formation you can stick in the centre of your battle line that won't be going anywhere at all quickly and if you couple that with Haldir then you can field a unit of Galadhrim knights and they will always pass at the double allowing them to move a formidable 24" a turn... Coupled with charge distance then they can easily hit an opponents flank.... Elven knights with F7 and hitting a flank gives you a bucket load of attacks that will strike before infantry....


Anyways, in response to the original post... Yes, your opponent has F0 in a duel if he fails his terror test and it's such a nice thing to be able to do to an evil player who is usually doing this to you!

This is one of the reasons we house-ruled against anything modifying FV in duels, it makes captains a serious liability.

It also makes epic strikers kinda overpowered, to compensate we also eliminated the negatives like black breath and failed courage tests.

Fluffy explanation is that it is to much about reflexes and elemental skill which allows you to focus on the enemy and drive out all other influences. fight or flight and time for flight has passed...

So far this little house rule has proved usefull.

And favours certain types of heroes more than others. Additionally it turns a duel into one of sheer luck and brawn. Fight value takes into account reflexes and elemental skill.

And speaking from hard learned experience here. You can't concentrate properly when you are drunk.... Imagine if someone was inside your head, playing with your mind or had decided to throw fireballs at you.

No, part of what makes a LOT of good heroes so powerful is epic strike or epic duel or in the case of elves the ability to use terror to even the playing field.

Otherwise it is just simply a case of an orc captain having as much of a chance as Aragorn in a duel. That's just plain silly.

Sorry, that house rule favours mob armies instead of quality armies and the system already favours quantity over quality.

"And favours certain types of heroes more than others. Additionally it turns a duel into one of sheer luck and brawn. Fight value takes into account reflexes and elemental skill."

exactly, with a couple of points of difference in FV shifting the odds in favor of the more skilled hero. Duels aren't supposed to be an auto-win or take out entire formations. Duelling on a battlefield should be a dangerous affair.


"Otherwise it is just simply a case of an orc captain having as much of a chance as Aragorn in a duel. That's just plain silly."

This is not accurate as aragorn has a higher FV than an orc captain. Actually, allowing epic strike in duels would mean some lesser heroes are on even footing with Aragorn, silly indeed.


"Sorry, that house rule favours mob armies instead of quality armies and the system already favours quantity over quality."


The game actually favors quality over quantity at the moment. Ever heard of something called "pinwheel of death"?
A single formation of Elven archers with about 1600 points of heroes in it. Hasn't lost a single company in a tournament if the stories are to be believed.

We will have to agree to disagree. I am of the belief that your system makes dueling substantially less deadly. There's a reason the 9 were so feared in the books and your rules make them complete push overs. An epic challenge and there's a dead Ringwraith.

Having only read the gw battlereport just minuts ago, you might be right and we should change our houserule as they used epic strike in a duel.

It just leads to new timing issues however..

Even without epic strike the wraiths arent pushovers, they're just more support characters as their mere FV5 shows.

They aren't though, they could reduce all but the most powerful warriors to gibbering wrecks. I mean you read the books and you get the feeling that only a handful of characters ever stood a chance against the Witchking. In fact only three characters faced him without the remotest look of worry.

Glordfindal (A potent elf, spell caster, warrior and an elven first born)
Gandalf (A Maiya..... He killed a balrog and if his true form was revealed could potentially go toe to toe with Sauron [imho])
Aragorn


Let's face it, they are seriously nasty creatures who inflict terror etc. I don't see why "He's a magician he would be rubbish in combat" really stands... I mean if I attack your mind, reveal myself in a fiery form while shining light from my staff/sword and seeming to grow larger than all around me I'm fairly sure your usual expertise with a sword would be affected in some way? No??

I'm pushing for only unmodified fight to be used in duels locally. My reading of RAW is that Epic Strike etc are clearly permitted, but my own experience is that, while it's not unbalancing, it does lead players to heavily favour taking Epic Strikers and avoiding captains.

AFAIK,using unmodified fight does not disadvantage anyone who should be good in duels. Elves, Aragorn etc already start with a higher fight / more might and it makes Rohan heroes with their dueling reroll, for example, actually worth taking.

Your looking at who should be good in duels with a typical fantasy setting. You know warrior kills up close. Wizard dies up close.

That is simply not the case with Tolkien's world. This is something that the games manage to capture quite well. That magic is extremely powerful and usually quite subtle.

Ringwraiths are lethal in a duel. No ifs buts or whys, they just kill you dead unless you are extremely courageous etc. And you will find most of the characters you are talking about are!
The same goes for Gandalf. They guy held the gate of Minis Tirth alone, the bridge of Kazahd doom.

I think we will have to agree to disagree, I can see you point but I don't think I agree with it. I'm not sure I'm articulating what I'm trying to say very well either.

Xelee: In response tot he comment of leading people to take characters over captains, that is likely part of the intent. I think that Captains are overpriced slightly (Shieldbearer for Dwarves has 1 less courage and might, but gets a strong special rule [doubling the chance of steadfast, as does a banner, combined making 4 times the chance] for half the price) and that the characters are intended to be very powerful sot hat people want to take those that are featured. To play with the "great heroes of our time" and, in a less game-oriented sense, to produce more sales of figures that are bought, usually only, once per person or aren't always bought (such as getting Legolas to join a Dwarf army...).

Just some thoughts

It's quite likely it was the intent. Rares and Epics (ie specials that attract a higher sticker price) are much better in this game than their normal counterparts.

However, in the course of doing this the rules writers, IMO, got a bit sloppy here and there. I don't have a huge personal stake in this, since I play Ithilien (Gondor), which is blessed with a plethora of ES heroes. They are all I take these days. I didn't use to, but hit the Wraith spam, and here I am, albeit reluctantly.

However, it's a shame that forces like Rohan, (heroes with the dueling rerolls) or Elves + Easterlings + Isengard (high base fight) don't really get a meaningful benefit from being better fighters. Worse, the mightiest heroes and heroic monsters are on a par with Faramir a lot of the time.

Brutoni can make assumptions about what others are looking at all he wants, but the practical consequence of ES in duels is that the margin between F10 and normal Fight is so large, and many heroes get it so cheaply, that it can't help but distort list design. It's just a matter of protecting yourself. The inequalities creep in when the protections are not evenly allocated. Having ES does a Wraith little practical good vs Gondor. The duel caller gets +1 and can add might if the dice go against them, if not, then they have might for more duels next time.

I think it's especially unfair to the Elves, which are already a force I feel is up against it a lot of the time (ridiculous combos at high points levels aside).

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. If you could please explain this to me so I can respond?

In case it comes into it, I play elves so I'm well aware of the problems they face.

Essentially, the margin is so great that it obviates other factors. Fight 10 vs fight 4 or 5 is an auto win, assuming neither side add might.

So, if you get players in a group who can and do start to maximise this, then it has implications for what others then do with their lists to cope.

Insofar as most people can (somewhat) cope ok via doing various things with their list, then it is not a major balance problem. That is, everyone can remain (somewhat) competitive by making changes to their lists.

What I am not a big fan of is what it does to lists and how it affects balance between lists.
However, it will not start to be a problem in a group until some do it.

While it is important that a rule set is balanced to restrict this behaviour. It is also important to realise that no number of house rules will stop it... Or even official rules for that matter. It lies in the behaviour of the humans who are playing the game.

This is why I don't like house rules that dramatically alter the game. It's far better to find ways round things by having balanced (themed) lists and how well you can play on the field.

Brutoni, I am not trying to persuade you in particular, you already said you agreed to disagree, several posts ago.

This is a game with points and rules and it is the behaviour of humans that leads people to take bigger formations over min strength, eschew banners on many formations and work hard to get the elements of their lists playing in combination. There is nothing wrong with that 'behariour' and it doesn't need changing, but it a good number of us aren't going to turn down an easy fix to an imbalance in the points and rules just because it is a 'houserule'.

'Theme' is easy, my Ithilein forced is heavily themed down to having a White Company. The Leaders are Faramir (Prince of Ithilien) Elessar (KOTRK), Elphir of Dol Amroth and Eomer leading allied Royal Knights. I would be taking those heroes whether Epic strike was in play or not. I have seen the most min-maxed lists claim to be themed. Theme does not balance lists and, since it doesn't, best not to spoil people's fun trying to alter their individual themes to fit a notion of balance.

(edit) FAQ is out on the GW website btw.