well i your not spuds or g elessar then this might be new

yesterday i was at a gaming club and took this list:

Durburz
khamul (allied)

6c goblins shields
5c goblins shields
2c goblins shortbows
2c goblins shortbows
2c goblins shortbows
4c wargs
3c warg riders (allied)

cave troll
cave troll
6c blackshields drum
dragon magic
1495pts

enemy's list
the dark marshel on FB
the mouth of saruon

2c orc archers
3c morranons banner
6c morranons banner capt
2c orc trackers

3c blackguard of bara dur banner, capt
troll
troll capt (he had a 1400pt list so make this guys into a capt so match my pts)
court of fallen kings

battle for the pass, king of the hill

so this list actually did really well, khamul was in the blackshields and they just sat on the objective, he failed to kill khamul in a duel, and i black darted the mouth of S b4 he did that to me, after that he couldnt really kill khamul and so the blackshields were pretty much invunerable (the dragon and the 6c gobs guarded the objecitve as well) so we called it a game there

first things: nazgul are SUPER overpowered (im going to be saying this for awhile), cause you just black dart anyone who could hurt you, and pall of night big scary stuff (cant charge)
my dragon didnt do much other than distract the fell beast and make him back up one of his flanks, but pall of night stopped him from doing much
the 5c goblins did nothing, id rather use the points as upgrades as they couldnt keep up with my army (no at the double)
court of fallen kings are quite good against anything thats not R1, these guys decimated my wargs (and so hard to kill with D7)
having lots of small units is really handy (especially archers), they dont get in the way and can shoot/ block pesky stuff (super handy when he ambushed his trackers)

i must say that im really proud of my self for this as this guy one that won the tournament that i was in (in the tourny he took the battlehost that allowed his 6 trolls to reroll 1s in combat.... in his last game he wiped out his opponent when i was only half way through my game)

Now there is a tourny a ways off, but i want to make at least a template list so i know what to buy (and hopefully paint... im not very good at doing it)
and this tourny has these rules: limit of 5 mastery lvls and 1 max EH2K model

so this is what i want to do:
not take and ringwraith, they are so overpowered and ive used one every game so i want to try taking an evil army WITH OUT ANY NAZGUL (weird right? )
get druzhag in there
hopfully have more wargs in my list (although i might not take any as druzhag will be spawning them most likely)

possible have mass trolls with Buhrdur, they are only 75pts so i can use them to block/defend and even gang up on tough units (i might be able to get teh battlehost with Buhrdur if someone lends me some orcs) OR
get a bunch of flyers, im thinking the dragon, Gulavhar, mabye bats if i can afford them

a shade
the goblin battle host that allows durburz to spawn units
and then the fun stuff, like gollum
and there is always the possibility that i could get a stone giant or cave drake (i can see mass dragons in future)

I know that im asking for alot, but heck, start big and then work out what i can and cant do


durburz
druzhag
gollum (i always think of him as a fate, not a hero..)

6c goblins drum capt
2c archers
2c archers
2c archers
1c archers
1c archers
4c wargs

6c blackshields -drum -capt
cave troll
cave troll
dragon magic
shade

buhrdur
gulavhar
so this is the list that i just thought of, with out looking at the total pts... and it comes to EXACTLY 2000pts


so here is my first try

druzhag

Gulavhar

2c archers
1c archers

dragon

moria battlehost:
durburz

6c goblins drum capt
6c goblins

cave troll
cave troll
75pts for the battlehost
1495pts
so i have 2 main units that will be the core of the army, (epic heros will be in these) aaaaaand the the trolls block the sides.... the archers to the same..... and the dragon and Gulavhar go around together mashing stuff (dragon blocking shooting and magic from hurting gulavhar). but im not very confident in this as there isnt much too it, the dragon and Gulavhar would be fun, but take up so many pts. on the upside my 2 heros can spawn stuff, so it would be really interesting

So for the sake of not getting smashed i would swap Gulavhar with Buhrdur, a capt for the other gobs, and 1 more c of archers. I could swap the gob capt for Thrydan, but that seems unfair as he is so underpriced and not thematic... power gaming

so once again i have a super long post

No, it's not wierd and more people need to start considering it. Though, Goblin players don't generally tend to take Wraith is the first place, IME. Some armies will have Wraiths in them because that is how they work/fit the background, but they need to be toned down a little-lot (depending on the Wraith). However, this business I see where people's first piece of army advice is "ally/take Khamul" has got beyond the point of silliness.

Still, spells can fail and Wraiths can be dueled, so it's only when they start appearing in large numbers and with the full mastery 3 that they overwhelm all reasonable counters.

Buhrdur is a much better choice than Gulavar. Keep him screened and at flanks and then double around the sides. He also can duel out enemy heroes and act as a utility ambush.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

well this is what i was thinking:
buhrdur will ambush (comes out at the double, rear charge, duel)
durburz can summon gobs ANYWHERE (but 12" away from enemies, so no immediate charges unless they move toward them)
druzhag can summon beast anywhere within 12"... so if they move too close ill summon them behind the enemy


druzhag
Buhrdur
2c archers
1c archers x2 OR 2c archers
dragon - magic

moria battlehost:
durburz
6c goblins drum capt
6c goblins capt
cave troll
cave troll
75pts for the battlehost
1495pts

ok and i need some other ppls advice on this: should i get Thrydan for an ES hero, but lose theme. or get a capt which cant do anything
(thrydan would protect druzhag/ kill heros while the other two heros spawn guys)
and should i get 2 2c archers or 2c and 2 1c

and then 1 last thing, what is the battlehost with Buhrdur that has everyone being ambushers?

and i was joking about how weird it is.... just emphasizing how so many ppl take them

I'd try to get another large formation, probably by dropping the drum.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

I can afford to take another big one as i would need to drop a substantial amount of stuff, so im gonna try with what i have. not to mention that the drum is a required part of the battlehost (the drum will nulify enemies banners(and i think other stuff))
in maelstrom i should be fine as i can spawn guys in locations of my choice, and my army is really mobile. battle for the pass im not too worried about as my lack of a large unit(to take up space and block) isnt much of a problem cause its a narrow board anyway (and even if they break my flank i can just move the exposed formation to face where the exposed side was, well id do this in any scenario), shieldwall will be more tricky, but ill deploy more so on one side of the board, so it will be harder to flank me.

this army relies a fair bit on the prowlers rule, as the units i spawn wont be very large.

now im considering not taking the dragon so i can beaf up the rest of the army, but then i lose a big asset. in my experience, most people just cant deal with something like the dragon (they take lots of troops and elites (ie swan knights) which is good against a conventional army, but useless against the dragon). so im really unsure on what to do

and ive decided that i wont take thrydan, as i just feel bad considering him (one of my opponents said he felt bad about taking him, as he is so unfair) and its too power gaming (if i really wanted to win the tourny i would take khamul, thrydan, and enough goblins to win by simply blocking my opponent with flesh (in king of the hill and the objective one this would work really well as im so fast, and can run away with objective while the rest block))

so my big question right now: keep the dragon or not?



my biggest worry is if someone takes several big formations and a bunch of fillers/ blockers then

I'd keep the Dragon. There are very few ways to deal with it, and most players will panic as soon as you delcare that you're going to field it. A Dragon can deal a fair amount of damage, can take a lot, is very maneuverable, has magic, and has a decent ranged attack too. Altogether that's a very scary and powerful unit.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

i won my first 2 games in wotr pretty much cause of what u said
its just that it takes up 1/3 of my pts so i could beaf up my army considerably.

there is 1 problem with taking him: there are people that know how to deal with things like dragons, and the evil side in particular has no problem with him.... pall of night pretty much makes him a fast magic caster, so he could never charge.... and the fact that every nazgul and mordor shaman has the spell means that once ppl catch on that you can nullify him.... well you get the picture
the good side is a totally different picture, gandalf is the only reasonable counter to the dragon (there are others but they cost about the same as him). his blinding light kills dragons fast, combined with his other skills he can take down the dragon or nullify him (enfeeble + epic defense, then next turn blessing of the valar )

my problem right now is getting the models, i currently dont have druzhag/ Buhrdur/spider/ bats and these models are hard to find (apart from buhrdur), as alot of GW stores dont keep them in stock and nobody sells them on ebay (apart from spiders... i find about 2 every 2nd month....)

hopfully ill have some more beast soon, and i just recently got 77 gobs for 11.3 pounds, or about $19 Australian dollars

I would keep the dragon on the flanks so the nazgul can't see him. I'm with GE about dropping the drum, I would also lose the captain, this gives you 125 points to play with which you can use to get another 6c formation of gobbos. IDK what you're on about durburz summoning gobbos. To get spiders and bats, if you can't find them on ebay, amazon etc. I would just make a big order off the games-workshop website. About archers, you need a lot more. I would get some more formations of archers 2-3 companies. I advise against 1 company formations of archers, you'll be able to squeeze through or into pretty much any building or gap.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

I'm playing Wotr tournaments and here are some tips for a misty mountians army:
Take a dragon but not as a first hitter use him behind your own formations to fly over it and then charge in the front with your mass of goblins.
Cave trolls suck sorry too say this but when you are playing against better opponents trolls died very soon when they killed 2 or less warriors.

So I should drop the 2 cave trolls and take some wild wargs and more goblins

Your tactic should be just throw your goblins to the enemy and use your wargs, summoned beasts and dragon to charge them in the rear or flank. And when your dragon is behind the enemy your enemy can't cast spells at him and when he turns to face him he has a large formation of goblins in his rear.

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"There are only 4 things you need in life: Lasagna, beer, a girlfriend and of course a gondor army."

Considering that a 180 degree turn is completely free (according to the official FAQ), there is nothing stopping someone from turning around, cast a spell and then turning back.

But I do agree that Trolls are useless. Dragons are also pretty useless when there are lots of Wizards (especially Nazgul) running around. I would drop the drum too. In fact the whole Moria Battlehost is in fact pretty bad, althought it seems good when you first see it on paper. So in total, having said all that - Get as many goblins (mainly Gundabad Blackshields and some archers), Epic Heroes and 3-4 formations of Wild Wargs and/or Giant Spiders and you should be good to go.

_________________
Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

That's gonna=a lot of blisters of gundabads as I guess proxies won't be accepted anymore when the real deal comes out.

_________________
"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

whats so bad about the moria battlehost? any enemy within 12'' of the drum gets no benefit from banners of musians. and during the priority phase, durburz can expend might to put D3+1 sized goblins anywhere 12'' away from the enemy. so this combined with the fact that i have an army made up of prowlers and druzhag too, means that i can summon a bunch of guys behind their lines, getting flank charges (and buhrdur can ambush behind as well)
so my army would be able to be everywhere very fast, the drum formation can move 18"!! a turn, and the other can move at the double as well, and everything else can come in from behind.

and about turning around and casting a spell: when you cast a spell you have to cast all of them for that person at the same time (read the rules, it says you cast another spell IMMEDIATELY after the last, so you couldnt cast any spells in front of you, only at the back even if you just want to cast 1 spell at someone there)

i understand how much trolls suck, there arnt that fast (compared to stuff that moves at the double... ), cant dish out a whole lot of pain, can be killed easily. but i would still take at least 1, as they are brilliant when it comes to defense. just have them around you flanks and he can hold ppl of for a turn or too and even get ambushers as he can see in every direction
i have seen a friend take an army with lots of 2-3c archers and lots of trolls, the trolls and archers are so cheap that he uses them as throw aways when he has to stall ppl, and his army was really slippery, as trolls can move in every direction, and the archers pelted the dangerous stuff

Since i have time this time, im gonna try making a list using the battlehost with buhrdur in it (and everyone gets the ambusher rule (i dont have the book just yet))
so ya, the 800pts sbg tourny is today, so im gonna get ready to go. you guys can experiment with list or something while im gone

I'm looking forward to hearing the results from the tournament.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

well i posted the results of the 800pts tourny in that forum, so you can see what happened there (be warned, i wrote alot... (after i finished writing it and posted it i saw just how much i wrote... i was shocked)), and i hope haldir stikes can give a report as he had some really good games

but anyway, do you guys really think that the moria battlehost is not worth it? i guess that i wouldnt be able to use the might to spawn a whole lot of guys, cause then i would get dueled to death. speaking of which, i really want to get another hero that has ES, as there will undoutably be plenty of them around to challenge my heros. and when do the new models come out? i really want to see if i can get a cave drake in the army.

as for the current list, i think ill go with what you guys are saying, and change it up a bit, but i dont have time just now so ill get a new one up soon

A Cave Drake really isn't a good idea; it's only got two attacks and because it only has F6 it isn't even much good in Heroic Duels.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

the tourny is not held at GW, so i could still proxy some gobs as blackshields

new list:
Durburz
Druzhag

Buhrdur

6c gobs- sh- capt
6c gobs- sh
2c gobs- bows
2c gobs- bows

dragon - magic
7c blackshields - drum

fate: token of terror OR curse of morgoth

this leaves me with 120 pts to play with, oh, and the capt on the 6c gobs is so they can move at the double
im not going to take another unit of gobs, i simply dont have space to maneuver, im thinking of allying in gothmog, as he adds much need might(with overlord), ES and the master of battle rule
if i do, ill i take the cursed armor fate instead (on the blackshields if im against str 4, on the gobs if against str 3), drop the capt, and then take gothmog
im taking him cause i feel that ES heroes will crush my gob formations as ill only have druzhag or a capt there... and gobins fight is super low...

so feel free to critique

I think that Gothmog would ruin the theme and also might be considered power-gaming. I would get some spiders or a 6 formation of wargs.

_________________
"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

Durburz
Druzhag

Buhrdur

6c gobs- sh- capt
6c gobs- sh
2c gobs- bows
2c gobs- bows

dragon - magic
7c blackshields - drum
1355pts

im not sure what else to get, the wargs is a good idea, if i get them then i have 25pts remaining, perfect for getting a fate, although i was also hoping that i would be able to take one of the bigger fates (thinking of tainted palantir and cursed armor)

so ideas would be welcome

I'd drop the Captain and get another six companies of Goblins with shields. Then, with 75pts left, you could get the Tainted Palantir.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

He just said he didn't want another formation of goblins...

_________________
"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel