WOTR - Gandalf the Necromancer

Killerkatanas · **Joined:** Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:52 am **Posts:** 182

This really troubles me.

Take the spell "Blessings of Valar." This allows you to heal D3 (if you roll 2-5) or D6 (if you roll a 6) worth of casualties suffered on a unit. One dead figure is brought back to life in a formation, does not matter what it is.

Use that on the Fellowship, or the White Council, and Gandalf the Gray becomes Gandalf the Necromancer. The entire formation must to be outright killed off in a single turn or Gandalf can use this power to replenish the dead fellowship or council.

When used on the fellowship, each pip on the die allows you to bring a character back. Any number of dead hobbits can be brought back for 1 point, while each other character costs 1 each.

In a recent game I attacked the Fellowship with 2 Feral Uruk-hai and a Troll, and lost all my troops, while killing all the hobbits and Boromir, whom were all then brought back to life the next turn by Gandalf because Gandalf rolled a 2 with the spell (1 for the hobbits and 1 for Boromir)

The following turn, I shot up the fellowship with my Uruk crossbows and killed the Hobbits. In the ensuing melee I killed Boromir and Gimli, but once again, Gandalf the Necromancer brought them all back to life (1 for all the hobbits, 1 for Boromir and 1 for Gimli--and he rolled a 6 that time). My unit of 24 Uruks was wiped out.

Next turn the fellowship hit one of my Uruk warband units. I killed all the Hobits and Boromir once again, and lost my entire unit of 24 Uruks. Would you guess it, that's right, the next turn they were brought back to life by Gandalf.

My Uruk Pike Unit was next. In this fight I killed all the hobbits and Boromir, and once again they were brought back to life by Gandalf. My unit of 48 Pikes was destroyed!

I gave up fighting the Fellowship after this, and moved my troops as fast as I could away to engage the Dwarves--anything was better than facing down these undead.

Absolutely rediculous, but it is one of the spells that can be used by any character that has the ability to cast Spells of Command. When used on a regular unit this revival may not be so bad, but when it is used on special unit it is downright overpowering.

Any thoughts?

Brian

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

I also faced this once, only he also had elrond in a nearby formation to bring even more guys back (special ability). I can't tell you how many times in that game I knocked the fellowship down to just gandalf.

Despite that I really didn't think they were all that powerful, unjust need to remember to concentrate on other targets first until I can hit the fellowship with overwhelming force.

Erurainon the Trombonist · **Posted:** Mon May 09, 2011 8:50 pm

I had the same problem when Gandalf was with 3 companies of Khazad Guard. Their high defence meant I only managed to deal a few casualties before they were brought back again. They remained at the same strength for the whole time Gandalf was with them because of Blessing of the Valar.

smaul · **Posted:** Tue May 10, 2011 2:55 pm

just a thought, but it says to heal, so not sure he is raising the dead as much as healing them before they die. Off topic but just a thought.

on topic, I would duel Gandalf if I could and go from there. You could also bring a wraith or two and black dart him etc....

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Can't duel him if he is in the fellowship. The "Company of Heroes" special rule. Not sure about Black Dart. I don't see anything saying you CAN'T target a specific hero in a company of heroes formation, and then the Might would just be deducted from the group's total? Not that BD is likely to actually kill a R3 hero anyway.

smaul · **Posted:** Tue May 10, 2011 6:50 pm

ah, my bad, I have not seen that formation on the table yet or see "company of Heroes" in action.

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

Ah. I can see the problem, usually Blessing of the Valar can be eventually countered by heroic duelling the pesky wizard using a nice epic strike before hand to stack the odds towards certain death of the spell caster. Saruman has the same spell and uses the Blessings of those paragons of niceness to regenerate Uruk-Hai. usually why I stick the wily one in a deep formation of Uruk-Hai Warband.

However, I can see this not just applying to that Fellowship or Possible the other specials, The White Council, or the Council of Wizardry, but also to bringing back slain Epics in a normal formation. Due to the rule that you cant have more heroes or upgrades in a company than normal warriors, a slain epic hero lurking in the non-command company could be resurrected... *cough* Healed.

Ultimately though, it can be disheartening to have the Fellowship at full strength each turn... however look at the points value. It Costs 500 points tickling it each round with combined units fo 150-200 points isnt much use.... For example a Lowly Orc Captain in a Heroic duel with a mighty good hero the upshot is pretty much usually going to be a dead orc and the hero unscathed. i.e. the same kind of principle is involved 'don't send a boy to do a man's job'

However, the key might be to fight fire with fire. i.e. magic with magic a couple of shamen together with saruman in those units mentioned in the opening post, throwing firebolts... 3d6+9 strength 5 even at resilience 3 is hard to recover from, if then followed up in the shoot phase from arrows/bolts and a charge attack, and if you manage to get priority on following turn, then those firebolts hit again before Gandalf the Necromancer operates his stuff.

Altenately look at other heavy hitters. Three ballistae with strength 9 hits also handily bypass most armour values.

But also look at the big picture. Sure the fellowship is hard to kill, and lots of cool abilities, as befits the mightiest heroes in middle earth... BUT look at it for 500 points a unit with 10 attacks, and gandalf slinging magic...Thats a lot of points for not THAT much clout. Gandalf doesnt have his special Blinding Light spell in this formation either (so how did the fellowship kill 48 pike in a round?)

So your plan to just sideline them also is sound. maybe take 6 or so 'disposable' single company formations of orcs. Not only would each allow you more 'Rare' formations under the decree or Rarity (like more Trolls), but massed around the fellowship, even losing 1-2 a turn keeps the fellowship occupied. a 6 company formation of orcs could be whittled down in 2-3 rounds by persistent bow fire from an opposing company, but 6 single ones? They are pesky to deal with for the enemy as although they are easily killed (4 dead orcs and the company is removed) it is distracting and they risk flank or rear charges from them, or else waste time dealing with them allowing your main battle units to manouevre better

smaul · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2011 4:40 pm

Interesting points daersalon

I guess if you put it in perspective, as a Mordor player if I was facing them, I could take 10 siege bow batteries for the same cost I believe (no book here at work) but with 10 of those hitting that formation in one turn, even if 1/3 missed I would think you could likely say goodbye, at least after a turn or two.

Using larger siege engines might be more devastating, like the ballistae you mentioned.

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

Ah well, remember the -1 penalty for shooting a single company? The siege weapons would therefore hit only 50% of the time.

Mathematically, for Mordor, 10 Siege Bows (500 points), 50% hit rate = 5d6 Str 8 hits. That is, on average 3.5 x 5 = 17.5 hits. Str 8 vs Def 7 needs 4+ to score a hit, which is 50% so.... expect 8 hits a round sometimes 9. The Fellowship is resilience 3 so that is 2 (sometimes 3) models a turn. Enough for Gandalf the Necromancer to keep 'em going. But then its one less spell to sling and always himself runs the risk of a failure on the spell or Focus roll.

For Isengard, 6 Ballistae (450 points), works out at 3d6+4 Str 9 Hits (3 miss, 2 on target, one lucky strike, on average). That is 13.5 hits. Str 9 vs Def 7 needs a 3+ to hit which is 66.666% so.... expect 9 Hits around from them, marginally betterthan the Mordor artillery.

In short though, it does seem artillery alone isnt enough.... hrmmm.

smaul · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2011 6:45 pm

well, it would sure soften them up a bit before the heavy infantry or cavalry hit them.

I play a guy who lives off shooting. He has games where he is well above the average number of hits.

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

I can relate to that, the core of my Isengard force is crossbows, multiple ballistae, and Spells of Ruin slinging Saruman and a shaman... The pure pleasure in seeing that regiment of the pride of Gondoran cavalry shot completely down before even raising a lance ...

I suppose kamikaze-ing the fellowship with 3 formations of Sappers would be risky, but much fun... especially if you get close with all three in proximity, as one detonates it sets the other 2 off... 3d6+12 str10 hits..... Boom!

That has to be Fellowship-killing!

smaul · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2011 7:08 pm

I would like to see the 3 Sappers happen, that would be cool

I dont mind stuff like this, to me it is fun to figure out how to crack it. We have a group of 5 solid players here with a couple on and of players and it is fun to see how each players puts the army together and then after a game or two tweak them.

I enjoy that.

I dont like those shooter armies, but it is fun to figure out how to counter and even more fun when I get to the little buggers and crush them (when I can) :)

daersalon · **Joined:** Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:34 am **Posts:** 265

Interesting question though:

How would The Nine are abroad fare against The Fellowship of the Ring?

I am making custom bases for these two.. but would be an interesting mini duel, 500 vs 500.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Thu May 12, 2011 1:16 pm

Just thinking about some of the special rules and magic I have a feeling it would only take a couple turns for both players to decide to get pizza and a beer instead.

smaul · **Posted:** Thu May 12, 2011 1:53 pm

hmmmm

I might have to simulate that this weekend just to see, one on one

wow, pretty complex turn on the table I would imagine.

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

daersalon wrote:

How would The Nine are abroad fare against The Fellowship of the Ring?

I think the 9 would get slaughtered.

The high mastery level sounds impressive but realistically they are probably going to fail a focus roll after only a few spells and only a couple of the Nazgul's abilities are really useful in that situation and the Nine only have resilience 2.

It's possible Khamul's ability might swing things though. I have never really seen The Nine Abroad in action so I'm just guessing here

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Thu May 12, 2011 8:04 pm

Whell, the Nazgul shouldn't be getting into direct combat too much anyway, both theme and mechanics. If they do, I think D8 + R2 + Khamul could keep it around for a while. You're going to need to face Strength 6 (or equiv with bonuses) before you can even be hurt below a 6. Then they are going to face some bounce backs, and then they still need to get your R2. Enfeeble or such to make this even harder.

I don't know all the other named Nazgul's special rules off the top of my head since they just don't play much role in our games but I can think of a few of them that would also help. I imagine it would be pretty easy to identify the least useful ones so you know who to take away first when you do take losses.

On the return you probably have cast a couple spells to sap their Courage so your Spirit Grasp ( 9 Attacks worth before any mods ) is going against a Courage that is almost always going to be equal or lower than Defense would have been (even Elf and Dwarf Courage is less than their D most of the time). And I'm pretty sure a few of the Nazgul had nice special rules to make them even more dangerous. So there may not be a lot of enthusiasim to attack them unless you have an overwhelming force.

Ultimate Formation? Absolutely not.
Always better than indvidual Nazgul? I seriously doubt it.

But I think this is one case where a Legendary can be an effective unit in the game, help you get out of the rut of throwing the same Nazgul into your formations game after game and trying not to feel dirty doing it (or at least not getting dirty looks) and try out some new tactics.

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Fri May 13, 2011 5:38 am

I'm doing this by memory so I could be wrong but quick Ringwraith summary.

Witch King: At-the-Double stuff
Khamul: reflect hits on a 5+
Undying: Always gets to roll 1 Will of Iron per spell and improved mastery per enemy spellcaster within 12" range.
Knight of Umbar: Matches enemies Strength or Fight Value.
Dwimmerlaik: Need two Might points for actions, 4+, 12" range
Tainted: Enemy warriors use their own courage, not the hero's within 12" range
Betrayer: Re-roll failed To Wound rolls in melee or shooting attacks.
Shadow Lord: Can only be shot at half-range and without accuracy bonuses
Dark Marshal: Can boost the fight value of a friendly unit within 12"

Personally I think that in a match between the Nine and the Fellowship, the Fellowship is in some serious trouble. Gandalf's magic is going to be nullified (or at least significantly reduced) by the Undying's free Will of Irons plus some Might Points. Unless Gimli hasn't been revived, the Nine can strike at the Fellowship at Strength 8 with re-rolls if the Betrayer and the Knight of Umbar are still around! The Shadowlord effectively eliminates the hazard of being shot up by the Fellowship's longbows (courtesy of Legolas). Khamul bounces back roughly every third hit, increasing the number of casualties amongst the Fellowship. Dwimmerlaik might occassionally be useful in preventing Heroic Actions from occuring. The Tainted is the least useful against the Fellowship and would probably be the first one to go.

WOTR - Gandalf the Necromancer

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