I think like many of you, that the best thing about SBG is it's indivisuality. No need to stick in square formations like most other squad games, but you have the freedom to put any of your models in whatever formation you like. Spacing things out can be critical in holding off waves of endless enemy attacks and bottlenecking trolls can stop them right in their path.

But does this also hamper the game?

If you are playing on any terrain with slight elevation or happen to be slightly clumsy, then knocking things over may be common in a game, whether it is a model or a tree, but these can alter the position of models easily which is fatal is some games. This can lead to many arguements with players whether or not they can reach a particular point or whether or not Aragorn can actually base touch all 3 models ect...

Don't get me wrong, I love SBG, but I do find that because of it's reliance on indivisuality it leads to many arguements in the game while squad based games (even ones without trays like 40k) are much quicker and have less arguements about them as you just need to have the majority of the squad to touch them to show combat.

Anyone find this true or think its all nonsense?

I don't think it is nonsense. I disagree. I think the people that argue about small details will do it in what ever system you play.
Power gamers are power gamers. Rules lawyers are rules lawyers. Some people have to win and will do so at what ever the cost.I like to play for fun. A model falling over or a fraction of an inch hardly matters. If you make too big a deal over it I am less likely to invite you to play.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Agree with OMW, some people make too much of the millimeters. If the "can you reach your target" issue becomes an argument, my first recourse is to roll D6, 4-6 you can. If that doesn't work, the guy who did the knocking over of models loses...encourages a little caution

Well OP is stating that the skirmish system is flawed because of human error. Can't really blame that on the rules, the rulebook doesn't account for someone who is wearing loose clothing and is leaning over the table contacting models.

If there is a flaw to the skirmish system, it's one that we all know; taking the time to move every individual model, especially in a huge game. Where in rank & file type games you save time with the movement trays.

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My Lotr backlog: 305/952[][][][][][][][][][]32% completed
Painting Lineup: Mumakil x2, Rohan Heroes x8, Haradrim, SKoDA

I played in a game over the weekend with 2,500 miniatures and no arguments. Not GW rules but the people playing attitude is more important than the rules.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

For me, the greatest weakness to the SBG is how long it can take to actually kill the enemy. I have seen fights between two heavily armored foes go back and forth with no one dying for more than 15 turns. Sheesh. Sometimes I wish that there was an armor save mechanic like in Warhammer (Fantasy & 40K).

**ducks**

Honestly, though, that's why I prefer scenarios and smaller battles. I very rarely play anything over 500 points unless it is a scenario with decent victory conditions. More than 500 points and I'm suggesting WotR.

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Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies

can't stand armour saves.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

The individual model scale, combined with the Zone of Control concept, is probably my favorite aspects of SBG. This is also it's biggest problem because, as mentioned, it can create very long turns. Most of our local team could take several minutes to move their side in the later points of a game where you're trying to decide who will charge where while blocking other model moves and calculating combat odds, planing Heroics, anticipating your opponent's reactions and moves and then projecting all of this out for next turn as well, accounting for each possibility based on who wins Priority.

That's the nice thing about playing in a hobby shop. You can go off and browse the shelves, talk to other players, make a purchase, use the bathroom, get another drink and then return to the table to do it all again for your turn.

The problem you describe, as others have mentioned, is far more of a player attiude issue than anything to do with the system. I've seen movement trays in WotR shift and have issues due to hills or other non-difficult terrain. You have to remember it's just a game. Don't try to cheat but don't get hung up on a 1/4 inch difference. If there's a disagreement, dice it off and move on. If someone has that much of a problem don't play them again. As hinted at above (only partly in jest) our local players are comfortable enough with each other that we may even step away from the table while the other is moving. If a die has to be cast then someone is called over to watch, but we don't get hung up on the move/charge too much. We are all honest players and it's far more important to all of us to have a fun, fair game that we all feel good about at the end than it would be to try to sneak an extra 1" move on Aragorn just to have a chance of winning.

If the players are friends or at least respect each other and everyone has personal integrity then such issues as falling or shifting models should really be a non-issue.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

i haven't yet found this as a weakness so far.
every wargamer i have met so far is so kind and helpful to me. that is why i love this hobby already, as the people talking here are saying, it is about the people playing and not the rules that can make most of the problems but also more often makes the greatest and most enjoyable moments.

I partially agree. I mean, in every game there are people who are very uptight about the rules and the smallest details and they sometimes have the tendency to ruin your pleasure (depending on how much you care about what they have to say), but I've found that in this hobby, in particular, people tend to be rather generous in their positive comments and reactions and I find that quite pleasant indeed.

When I play I find it's easiest to just allow things to happen without arguing but if there is something I do disagree with I voice it, if my opponent is still insististing it's legal I either say alright or roll a 50:50 dice (usual course of action). A 50:50 dice can't be argued with.

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Backlog Reduction Oath

My WIP: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=21545&start=40