Hey all,

I have recently been very interested in some of the sources J.R.R. Tolkien drew inspiration from, as well as some major themes of his works and themes of works he was inspired by. I thought perhaps a community devoted to Lord of the Rings (well, devoted to "recreating Middle-earth in miniature"), might be interested in exploring these ideas with me! We hear a lot about his Norse parallels, especially the mythological aspects--elves, dwarves, etc, but I just kind of wanted to start with what I've been thinking about most recently, and that would be Tolkien's Anglo-Saxon, Old English influence. I read The Wanderer, which strongly conveys the Anglo-Saxon theme of Ubi Sunt ("Where now"), which is basically a questioning of mortality, and the absence of the things of the past. Towards the end of the poem, the speaker says, " 'Where has the horse gone? Where is the young warrior? Where is the giver of treasure? What has become of the feasting seats? Where are the joys of the hall? Alas, the bright cup! Alas, the mailed warrior! Alas, the prince's glory! How that time has gone, vanished beneath night's cover, just as if it had never had been! The wall, wondrous high, decorated with snake-likenesses, stands now over traces of the beloved company. The ash-spears' might has borne the earls away--weapons greedy for slaughter, Fate the mighty; and storms beat on the stone walls, snow, the herald of winter, falling thick binds the earth when darkness comes and night-shadow falls, sends harsh hailstones from the north in hatred of men. All earth's kingdom is wretched, the world beneath the skies is changed by the world of the fates. Here wealth is fleeting, here woman is fleeting--all this earthly habitation shall be emptied.' "

Did that remind you of something? Tolkien has a very similar poem in The Lord of the Rings, titled The Lament of the Rohirrim, or The Lament for Eorl the Young. In the book, it is recited by Aragorn, and in the film, by Theoden:
"Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?"

Alright, for the sake of discussion, I'll stop there. I recommend anyone who's interested in exploring these themes read The Wanderer and The Wife's Lament to explore the theme of ubi sunt, and be on the look out for Tolkien similarities!

See the tale of Beowulf.

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The hobbit follows the plot of Beowulf

(Not starting a flame…just a discussion…) I don’t think I can agree with that, having read each many times.

The Hobbit starts with an unsure hero that is brought along on a quest larger than he may ever have aspired to on his own. He experiences personal growth as the tale goes on but always remains a giving, kind heart that tries to avoid conflict, going so far as the giving of the Arkenstone and avoiding the great war at the end, and leaves with only what little he feels he needs.

Beowulf, on the other hand, is a great leader of his people and a mighty warrior. He travels across the sea to a distant land for the single purpose of proving his greatness by defeating a monster plaguing another kingdom. He is boastful, arrogant and prideful and changes very little over the course of the story, even to his death at the end.

There are absolutely elements of Beowulf that are pulled as either a very-close theme or even directly lifted. This is especially evident in Rohan, where many of the names and speech are thickly Anglo-Saxon influenced. The name of Theoden’s great hall is Meduseld which in Anglo-Saxon means Mead Hall, the name given to Hrothgar’s Heorot in Beowulf, many of the names of the characters are either derived from A-S words (some even lifted right from the poem), and several key encounters, speeches and descriptions are pulled from the epic poem. Tolkien opened his lectures each year by quoting the first several lines from Beowulf in their original A-S in grand method, which tales say intimidated many students right out of the class.

Tolkien was a professor of language and a great scholar of the earliest myths and legends. He pulled many of these together as inspiration when writing his stories, much as modern fiction writers are often influenced by Tolkien himself (regardless if they want to admit it or not). There have been several books and college courses that deal with little more than likely source materials and influences for Tolkien, and I have never seen one that does not tie Beowulf perhaps most closely to his themes than most other sources. My love of Tolkien was probably a reason I picked up a translation of Beowulf early in my life and my love of that epic poem may be a reason I have found myself drawn more strongly to Rohan than any other culture in the stories.

I’m not trying to say “you’re wrong” in any sense of the phrase. Simply that I haven’t seen the Hobbit story having much thematic influence from Beowulf. But like many such discussions much of it is based on opinion and perspective. I would be very interested in knowing some of what you see in the link between the stories. It is always good to hear such things so that with my next reading I can see the stories with a little different perspective myself.

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Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

I am not offended is okay... Just Hobbit as Beowulf is about a party of 13 persons who travel to seek the dragon that has commited 'the' crime. Both tales contains a thief... In Hobbit it is Bilbo. Both dragons are killed near the end, both they have arour that protects them. Both Bilbo and Beowulf defeat their enemy with their supernatural powers( Bilbo with the ring, Beowulf with his superhuman strangth.) Also both at one point get seperated by the rest of the group.
That's the similiarities... I don't say Hobbit is exactly like Beowulf but part of Hobbit is the influence from Beowulf.

Lol, I was going to mention Beowulf later, as clearly there are many parallels there, but I suppose no one wanted to talk about The Wanderer...anyway, I feel like while a lot of Middle-earth is inspired by Old English poetry, the Rohirrim specifically are very similar to the Anglo-Saxons. There are a lot of little details I could mention, like, as Beowulf mentioned, names that are lifted strait from poetry: Hama, for example, is mentioned in Beowulf, and ash-spears are mentioned as something the Rohirrim use (though I don't quite understand what an ash-spear is). One will also find "middle earth" as a term used in Old English poetry, and I was kind of wondering what "middle earth" means in the context of Old English poets, as it might give greater insight into the term Middle-earth as used by Tolkien. Any thoughts and/or definitive answers on that?

Ash spear has a couple interpretations.

Ash as a wood is moderately hard while remaining relatively easy to work, similar to oak, and has been used as a weapon handle through ancient times in the areas where it is found. So just on face value it probably means spears made from ash wood which is a logical way of reading it.

But almost nothing in Tolkien’s work should be taken only on face value. He had such a deep understanding of so many cultural, historical and linguistic realms and did so many revisions of his work that nearly everything is said and chosen for a reason. I am NOT one of the people that try to find meaning in everything JRRT writes and I really do just try to enjoy the stories for what they are, but since you asked about this one I took a quick look at the wood in Wikipedia and under Cultural Aspects you can see several themes that I’m sure the Professor was well aware of and probably influenced his use of the selection beyond the simple “it’s a good wood to make weapon handles out of”.

The following is stolen from wikipedia:


Cultural aspects
In Norse mythology, the World Tree Yggdrasil is commonly held to be an ash tree, and the first man, Ask, was formed from an ash tree. Elsewhere in Europe, snakes were said to be repelled by ash leaves or a circle drawn by an ash branch. Irish folklore claims that shadows from an ash tree would damage crops. In Cheshire, it was said that ash could be used to cure warts or rickets. In Sussex the ash and elm tree were known as the Widow Maker because the large boughs would often drop without warning.
In Greek mythology, the Meliae were nymphs of the ash, perhaps specifically of the Manna Ash (Fraxinus ornus), as dryads were nymphs of the oak. Many echoes of archaic Hellene rites and myth involve ash trees.
The ash exudes a sugary substance that, it has been suggested, was fermented to create the Norse Mead of Inspiration.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

"Middle-earth" comes from the old English "middangeard." It was commonly used in old English and was eventually translated into middle English as "middellærd." Incidently the word appears in the old English poem fragment that we know Tolkein had contact with because he also got the name Eärendil from it. The poem being Crist by Cynewulf.

Anytime I'm playing the game and people use characters like Celeborn or discuss trade with me regarding these characters do you guys bite your tongue when the pronounce them with a soft 'c' or do you correct the person. Lately, I've just been letting it slide, because when I've corrected people in the past I get looks and reactions as though I am a snob.

If I can tell the person is a player only and doesn't care too much for anything beyond the scope of the game then I don't bother saying anything. If they are playing the game because they already have an interest in JRRT's work then I try to help when appropriate.

TBH, when I was in high school I didn't like talking about the books with some of the college friends I knew because a couple of them did turn out to be "snobs" and assumed everyone already knew the right way to pronounce everything in each language Tolkien used. Though he did leave so much detail in the appendix and other source work the language aspects never got my attention so much as the supporting timelines, family trees, and other such reference material. I had enough trouble getting a passing grade in a second language with a teacher helping me, much less try to pick up a created language from the reference material in a fictional book. Programming languages...yes...spoken languages...no. Just the way the brain is wired. So I was probably mispronouncing many such words in my own mind for years or even decades until I was exposed to more people talking about them, then the radio productions and films helped clear things up for me greatly.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Tolkien's universe is a way of life. Not just a normal book/film/game.

Yes, I've seen translated Old English poems with the term "middle earth" as clear as day in them (the previously mentioned Wanderer, for example), though the only Old English poem I've read with an original language comparison is Caedmon's Hymn. I don't know if some translations I've read are trustworthy, but I guess the implication would be that the root "middangeard" was the original word used in the poem. Middangeard reminds me of Midgard from Norse mythology. Its clear to me that Tolkien uplifted the term from old poetry, but I am more curious to know why the original writers termed our world as middle earth. Logic dictates it has something to do with religious or supernatural beliefs (a world below, a world above, something along those lines). However, going back to Tolkien, I struggle to understand what makes Middle-earth the middle earth in Tolkien's mythology. It would imply that there are other earths, or worlds, and I can only ever think of the place where the Ainur dwell, which would be above, and "The West," which seems to be on the same level as Middle-earth but with more spiritual qualities. So is Middle-earth purely a name as a tribute to Old English or Norse poetry, or is there actually something "middle" about it?

Took me a while to understand a lot of the pronunciations in LotR. I think Modern English is a lot less Germanic than its roots...so I did mistakenly used to pronounce Celeborn as "Seleborn" instead of "Keleborn." "Seleborn" just seemed natural to me.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Middle-earth just refers to the one continent on which the events of Tolkien's mythology take place. Thus Middle-earth is separate from Arda, arda being the entire planet. Its been a while since I've done any reading on the topic and would have to go to my books to look it up, but I believe that to be the case. And the origins of the word "middangeard" means literally "middle" "home," at least as I remember or something close to that. What it is the middle of I would be unsure 100% since, as you stated, Ea and Aman seem to be of superior nature to Middle-earth--but again it just might mean in the middle of the world of Arda.

Yes Middle-earth was one of the continents. Other continents are Aman and the dark land.

I remember that a Norse poem called Voluspa (something like that) had characters with similar, or the same names as most of the dwarves from the Hobbit. someone may want to clarify...?

On a side note, I recently came into possession of a copy of the Professor's own biography. This might provide some information in terms of influence perhaps...
Also I read about a story where Tolkien, at only three years old, was bitten by a tarantula of some sort while living in South Africa, and a nurse had to suck the poison from his foot, I think.
Shelob anyone? (and 'lob' is Old English for spider, so.. 'she-spider')

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