You are also being dishonest. You have to misquote me in order to continue your put downs.
Draugluin » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:13 pm
The Obama remark was actually in response to the way BlackMist described him, it's just that he took it as meaning himself (granted that's kinda how I meant it).
and


So now you are trying to provoke me with racist remarks.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Ok, let me respond to what i think you are saying (i will press return alot to break it up)

As the tree is so thin
if there is a reasonable gap, either either side where the total (of both sides) is the width of a base
Then the model may proceed to ignore the tree for hte purposes of movement
so long as the model does not end ON the tree.

OR
As above but the gap must be a base width on either side (and not blocked by control zones etc)

If so...
The rules state if you go over something you must go over it. If you want to go round it then there must be a base width there.
If it is more than double your height you must climb it and as most trees are over 58mm you therefore have to climb it.
I agree therefore that the tree does not COMPLETELY block movement, but it does prevent normal movement rules and one must pass a climb test and move upwards at half speed as in difficult terrain.

If this is the case then 4 pages of arguing are basically over the fact that some people climb trees and some of us are calling basic movement "movement" and others are calling all moving actions "movement".

So let us look at what we agree on.
1) trees are solid objects
2) These must be climbed or circumnavigated
3) one cannot pass through the tree
4) half movement happens around the tree if the tree is on a base or in an area we are calling woodland or difficult terrain

Finally his remark was not racist it was aliking you in personality to Obama which is only racist if you qualify Obama as a black above his individual achievements as a politician and as a human.
He says that like Obama you are ignoring logic and reason. (though I would disagree that Obama ignoring logic and reason is relavent as he is an american leader and logic was never a strong point of american leaders if the Bushs were anything to go by, bada boom). But I would say no one earns put downs, so Daugluin please, if you are going to insult be less smart. Poo poo head or smelly face are much more friendly.

I honestly don't get what's Obama got to do with this thread... besides I'm pro-Obama, so I wouldn't be saying anything bad relating to him.


I might be foreign and not understand, even though I've used English as my first language fo almost 8 years, but... where is the racist remark in this?

I don't get how can people go into these types of things on a toy-forum. Seriously. Someone just doesn't want to accept that he's wrong, then let him be. Why does everybody care so much?

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I'm just doing as Blackmist sugested and ignoring you now.
I mean you probably also believe you can move through enemy models if they no longer have a control zone "Enemy models block movement until certain conditions are met" even though everyone knows that they always block movement through the space their base ocupies.

I must ask though, how hard is it for you to understand that affect and effect are not the same thing?
You are suposed to be a native english speaker and yet you keep using the term effect when you should use the term affect. It's even been pointed out already.
At the very least write in proper english. It can be very confusing for any non native speakers or young folks who haven't mastered the language yet to read sentences where the terms are wrongly applied.

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Non racist people like us read the Obama remark as aimed at the person he is. We see it as an attack on his personality and way of thinking just like the writer intended.
Racist folks on the other hand can never overlook the race issue, so it is always the first thing that springs to their mind. Obama is black -> racist remark.
There was no racist remark, just a person insulting Obama for who he is/what he does regardless of the colour of his skin.

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Right! Sooo we have narrowed down the argument a little. If you all actually read Old man willows posts (just his and noone elses) he has agreed trees 'affect' movement. But he doesn't accept block can mean 'affect'. The term block isn't a gaming term and so people can use that word or any other to describe how a tree might affect normal movement.

For instance models in combat still present an obstacle, blocking movement despite having no control zone. However blocking movement doesn't prevent one from directing models around it. This is central to the ongoing argument. You are arguing over the wording it seems (block and affect) but we are all using it in the same context).

Lonely Knight sums it up well - {"Enemy models block movement until certain conditions are met" even though everyone knows that they always block movement through the space their base ocupies.}

I understand you may wish to incorporate climbing rules although it seems rather silly in the midst of battle to have warriors traversing a 20ft+ tree but hey ho. The point here is movement should be measured by actually moving the model up to it's allowed distance AROUND the tree (and any other battlefield obstacles be they combats or terrain). If there is space to move around a tree it is the models base that must fit not just a 'small gap'.

You mention 1/32 inch but that is not right. It is if the models base can fit say between the trunk and any other obstacle (models etc). Some tree trunks I play with are larger than a models base and so it can affect direct movement by an inch or more (quite a distance for a warrior without the woodland special rule ability).

Anyway we all know (or think we know) how to play, the argument here seems to be about wording more than the rules. I really don't think OldManWillow can honestly dispute models/trees etc block movement. Control zones affect movement. Once a model is engaged, there is no 1" effect, instead the models fighting block models from moving through them. Same applies to a tree trunk...

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

BlackMist
You did not make the racist remark.You did not do any thing dishonest. I do not think you understand how provocative some of your remarks were.We are from different Generations and different cultures I can understand that our manners are not the same.
Your and my disagreement is over what blocking means in the context of your example on page 19. There is no need for comments like what kind of person I might be. The end result is that I have been provoked to the point that I have a legal defense for battery. We have the right to free speech in my country. Hate speech is a crime in Draugluin's country.

I am going to address each of your points one last time.

If this is the case then 4 pages of arguing are basically over the fact that some people climb trees and some of us are calling basic movement "movement" and others are calling all moving actions "movement".
yes
If you remove the remarks, veiled insults, Race baiting and Hate speech
It does not amount to much.

So let us look at what we agree on.
1) trees are solid objects
Yes
2) These must be climbed or circumnavigated
Yes
3) one cannot pass through the tree or any other solid eject
yes That position was attributed to me to invoke ridicule.
4) half movement happens around the tree if the tree is on a base or in an area we are calling woodland or difficult terrain
yes

My point is that you can not use trees like they were enemy models to block movement.
Trees can be by passed so they do not always block movement.On page 19 your example. The trees might block your plan to move in to combat because you don't have the movement left to reach your target.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

I think climbing trees in a normal game might be a bit much. I like to incorporate the models I build in to games. I have built some large trees so that they can be climbed.That is where WYSIWYG comes in.Some of my wire trees have very small trunks some of my trees trunks are 4 inches wide. Again WYSIWYG.
Thank you for reading what I said. We don't have to agree. I am tried of He said she said arguments.

There is an example of how to deal with the gap in the book on page 58

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Everyone else's point is that trees block movement like an enemy model that has already been charged, or like one of your own models. Or like a really tall pillar that is considered impossible to climb.
No one ever claimed that trees had a control zone.

by the way:

That point was attributed to you because you said the original poster's dad was right. And the original question was wether or not the galadhrim knights could pass through the space ocupied by the tree.

At least it's over now and there is no doubt that you cannot pass through the tree.

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I agree with that point! You can definitely defend the gap if the opportunity presents itself. The point about space is illustrated on page 15, 'gaps must be at least as wide as a model's base for a friendly warrior to move through.'

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

Black mist I want to say I am sorry I mixed up some of Loneknightly statements with yours. I hope you can forgive me for that.
Lonely Knight I am so sorry my typing is poor. I missed the error with spell check .
Now for your comments. Wash your mouth out with soap and go to bed with out your supper.Leave politics to adults. You have no idea how insulting your remarks are only that they are insulting. The Obama remarks were intentional inflammatory hate speech and race bating of the worst kind.They were intended to invoke your exact reaction. You are calling names now. Go away come back when you are old enough and smart enough not to fall into the sucker trap.You do not have enough credibility to be taken seriously.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

The confusing part of the example is that the winner can pass. I can not find the squeeze through example. Was it it the other addition?

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

I'm 23 mate. You were the one that called the reference out as racist, I've seen enough americans angry at Obama's politics to know that many really disagree with his views. You chose to view it as racism even though all he said was that Obama ignored logic and reason. Plenty of folks said the same thing about Bush and it was never considered racism.

You have been insulting since the very start. Why do you think I got angry?
You ignored people's posts. You dismissed arguments with a scoff, not bothering to explain why such arguments would be invalid. Maybe where you grew up that's acceptable, around here that's incredibly rude. As rude as giving someone the finger if you will.

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Page 56, under the Size heading

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Yes the winner can pass but it says "providing there is enough room!" (p58 working out defending fights)

A narrow gap is actually defined as 'one that is only just large enough for the defender to pass through'... this is for defending purposes but I presume warriors could still fight over gaps smaller than 25-30mm anyway... alas we are deviating

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

My response to this was: You just described Obama.
How is that racist? I was just drawing a parallel between what BlackMist said of you to the first person that I thought of that fits that description: Obama.
You yourself keep saying that you can't move through them, you have to circumnavigate the base, yet you then go on to say that the posters dad was right.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Oh and my post about "knowing better" was because Oldman Willow bluntly ignored this:


Which is an argument which he clearly has no way of countering. If you can pass through a tree, then you can pass through a wall, hence what's the point of sieges? Let's just use the models as if they were all ghosts and walk through everything as they wish. Ok, wood and stone, they're different... how about a wooden wall? Made of the same material as that very tree. And it's not just a tree, think of a statue - think of a wooden tree-like statue - can you pass through it?

The rules work in a way that every object is WYSIWYG. In Warhammer you used to be able to (or maybe still are) to see 2" inside the wood and wood was classed as an area regardless what was in it. This is different for LotR SBG. This is one of the most common misunderstanding that a WFB noob makes when playing LotR. In SBG there is nothing assumed, everything is as it is.

Can in real life a man pass through a 2-metre wide tree, while there are warriors standing by its sides and blocking the way? Tree is no different from a stone wall in this example.


1. Nobody insulted you and nobody called you any names, you're overexaggerating.
2. I'm a 22 year old university graduate pondering between politics and philosophy as a masters course
3. In terms of credibility in LotR I'm a 2 times LotR GT winner and a 5-time GT podium finisher (with WotR it would be 3 and 6)

Enjoy the game, have fun, good luck. Hopefully the people you play with enjoy the games too. Peace.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

Draugluin


It was a put down.You applied it to Obama. I took it as race baiting. It would be interpreted that way in the political turmoil in my area.
Fighting words is a common successful defense for battery. You might as well use the N word.You also confirmed your intent with your next comment.
I suggested you remove the comment and you laughed it off.

Race baiting is yet another political tool to invoke a reaction to distract the weak minded. You could not have done anything more to lower my opinion of you.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

BlackMist
This is a very confusing post. I have mixed some of your statements with those made by others others. My error. Your are doing the same. I do not have an issue with your credibility.
Peace.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

So in your country not making comments is the same as giving the finger. So insulting comments and name calling are what
How did you see my face to know if I was scoffing.
I ignored people's posts How are you so sure I saw them until after I had ready addressed the arguments You want to justify your behavior because you are angry
You know we are different generations and from different cultures.We have different standards.
Never mind all of that.
In my culture I am obligated to say: Pardon me for the miss understanding. You would be obligated to except the apology or fight.
You have escalated this well past rude.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"