Does anyone know if Gwaihir and the Giant Eagles count as monstrous cavalry? Do they get the knockdown bonus, etc. like a Fellbeast does?

I know they don't have riders, but in the very original rules, Gwaihir was considered a mount for Gandalf.

Also, on page 53 of the Mines of Moria mini-rulebook, it says "Mounts which are also Heroes (such as Gwaihir), may of course continue to fight as normal if they survive the trample...."
However, Gwaihir (and the Eagles') don't have a specific rule that states they are considered monstrous mounts with cavalry bonuses.

I've played with houserules before that eagles do get cavalry bonuses, as pretty much every other fast or flying monster is considered a monstrous mount (Dragon has draconic charge, Fellbeast has a rider/S6+, even Shelob and I think Cave drake? get knockdown bonuses). The only monsters that don't get cavalry bonuses are the big slower ones like Ents, trolls, and the Balrog.

Thanks.

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As far as i know no they don't, because it doesn't state it in there special rules or anything. Also they can't have any riders which therefore makes it so they're not a mount. But i really think they should get it.. it makes sense but the rules say they don't lol. Also i think that part in mumikil section of the rulebook is just a miss print or was put in before they realised that Gwaihir didn't have a special rule and couldnt have riders.

Gwaihir has a strength of 6 but there is no option anywhere for use as a mount for Gandalf or any of the other wizards. It is different for the Fellbeasts as they are reliant on their Nazgul masters and so cant fight without their guidance.

In the ORB (the big one) on page 53 it also mentions Gwaihir. Under the fellbeast rules it says rules for Monstrous Mounts are given in the Advanced Rules section. Immediately below is the 'Fly' special rule, which Gwaihir also has. I would say because of the mention on page 53, the similarities between Fellbeasts and Eagles and the Fly special rule, Gwaihir is a Monstrous Mount. If he isn't a Mounstrous Mount, then he isn't a Cavalry model and so even Cavalry models can knock the Eagles to the ground!

Also if Gwaihir wasn't a MM then the Nazgul on Fellbeasts would destroy them every time (contrary to what happened at the final battle in front of the Black Gate).

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

The Eagles are not Monstrous Mounts. If they were it would clearly say so in their description.

House Rule it, by all means, but it is not official and the latest books confirm this.

[quote="lorderkenbrand"If he isn't a Mounstrous Mount, then he isn't a Cavalry model and so even Cavalry models can knock the Eagles to the ground!

Also if Gwaihir wasn't a MM then the Nazgul on Fellbeasts would destroy them every time (contrary to what happened at the final battle in front of the Black Gate).[/quote]

Now now, don't get too hasty. Calvary only get the bonus on smaller models, not same size. So for example, rohan horsemen don't get a cavalry bonus on cave trolls, spiders, wild wargs or anything with the same size base. Only smaller. Likewise, Fellbeasts only get their bonus on man or horse sized bases, and the eagle is neither, so the eagle can cancel out the Fellbeast's bonus (a potent ability in it's own right). Is a no named eagle the counter for a fell beast? Not in SBG. Nor is it an equal. But 1 eagle is less expensive as well. If you load up pound for pound I would expect a close battle, but you shouldn't assume the eagle is the counter to the fellbeast.

Guys - please read ALL of the rules carefully.

Cavalry lose their Cavalry Charge bonuses when they charge non-cavalry models. A Troll is not cavalry, even a Mordor Troll or Eagle with a base bigger than that of a horse or Warg. Ergo, they DO get the relevant bonus when charging Trolls. What they lose is the Knock To The Ground bonus when the losing model has Strength 6 or more (unless they're using an S6 mount). So a Rider of Rohan gets 2 Attacks against the Troll's 3 and has two Strikes if he wins the combat.

Sometimes the distinction is subtle - a Mumak is not formally described as Cavalry but the text clearly states that it is a mount.

With regard to Eagles versus Fell Beasts, the birdies were easily victorious in the Return of the King film but in the book the Nazgul raced away to Mount Doom before the Eagles could engage.

I can't find that rule concerning base sizes in the book, I admit it's been a while since i last played but I can only find reference to Strength 6, nothing about base sizes...page reference? If this is true and the Fellbeast does not get any bonus against the eagle then I guess I could except that.

As for cavalry bonuses, all cavalry get the +1 bonus when charging except these bonuses do not apply when fighting 'enemy cavalry'. Gwaihir is even faster, larger etc than a standard cavalry model yet he apparently doesn't count as a cavalry model. Are you saying he won't get the +1 charge and knock down bonuses against foot soldiers?

He won't be knocked to the ground because of his strength although Str 6 models can be knocked to the ground by Str6+ cavalry (see below), that is clearly stated but the rules on Monstrous Mounts are brief. It simply makes reference to strength 6 models. It states 'Monstrous Mounts count as cavalry and follow the same rules for normal cavalry, except that they treat all models on the field as models on foot, with the exception of other Monstrous Mounts which still count as cavalry'. Again no mention of base sizes.

So either Gwaihir counts as Monstrous Mount in which case he negates the Fellbeasts cavalry charge bonuses (as Monstrous Mounts count as cavalry to one another) or he counts as a standard warrior with Str 6 and 12" movement, in which case he will suffer the +1 bonus and knock-to-the-ground....

- "If a mounted warrior with this bonus wins a fight, all his opponents are knocked to the ground, except for models with a Strength of 6 or more. These models cannot be knocked to the ground by cavalry UNLESS THE MOUNT ITSELF HAS A STRENGTH OF 6 OR MORE"

Fellbeasts have Str 6 so Gwaihir would be knocked to the ground if he was a normal warrior. This is why i think he is a Monstrous Mount. Also check out the description under the Mumak trample rules. Gwaihir has the same 'Fly' special rule and the same strength (6) as a Fellbeast so why is Gwaihir not a Monstrous Mount?

ps. according to the FAQ on GW
Q: Does a Cave Drake gain the Extra Attack bonus when charging? (p22)
A: No.

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

Really? Well my apologies for misinterpreting the rules. Thanks for pointing that out for me as son as I get home from work I'll re-read that entire section

In the Mines of Moria mini-rulebook, Eagles are almost twice as expensive as a Fellbeast upgrade for a Ringwraith. (I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post exact costs)
The Eagles do have 2 higher F, D, and C values, but if they don't count as cavalry, then Fellbeasts are vastly superior.

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Aye, but you need a rider for a fellbeast which you have to factor into the cost.

So I went over the rulebook and here is what confused me: "So in order to receive these bonuses you must be in combat exclusively with foot warriors." So my enterpretation of foot warriors didn't include monsters and other things, just warriors and warriors are always on a small base. So I didn't just pull that out of my rear. But since the rulebook then goes onto mention that you can't knock down anything with S6 or higher, and no warrior has that, then that means they could get the bonus when fighting other enemies as well. So just other cavs cancel the bonus, and as such, the fellbeast would get the bonus on an eagle.

I've scanned The Last Alliance, and the same topic came up a while back. Indeed contrary to what I wrote earlier, if Gwaihir's (and the Eagles) rules haven't changed in the new books it looks like the Fellbeast gets the +1 attack and knock to the ground special ability, despite the two beasts almost certainly fighting whilst in mid-air. This is because of the Fellbeasts Str 6 regardless of the Eagles being a Monstrous Mount or not. If the Eagles were a Monstrous Mount, then they could also gain the +1 attack and knock to the ground bonus against a Nazgul on fellbeast. As it is, they don't and I guess this prevents the Eagles being overpowered.

"If a mounted warrior with this bonus wins a fight, all his opponents are knocked to the ground, except for models with a Strength of 6 or more. These models cannot be knocked to the ground by cavalry unless the mount itself has a strength of 6 or more."

I think the rules as they are wouldn't be that bad if the Eagles had a special rule whereby they could never be knocked to the ground. This would reflect their agility and strength. It would mean the Nazgul on fellbeast would get +1 to the attack if it charges but the Eagles would not be knocked to the ground and suffer 6 wounds! What do you reckon?

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

Eagles are S6 - they don't get knocked to the ground. FBs would get the extra Attack only.

The FB has 6str, so the Eagle would get knocked to the ground.

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@Draugluin You're quite correct. My apologies. Thanks for the correction.

Eagles are now classed as monsters and so are fellbeasts, so I guess in the next rulebook FB's will not have a charge bonus against eagles or any other monster. Anyway, as current rules stand the FB will knock down an eagle as both are S6.

I've been wondering why they bothered listing everything as monsters and such without actually changing the rules.

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I've still got at least a week until I get the new books, but quick question...
Does classifying an Eagle as a monster mean you can add it to a dwarven warband or does it have to be in its own warband?

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One has nothing to do with the other.

Eagles are not part of the Dwarf army list and so cannot be part of a Dwarf Warband (the only warriors that can be in a dwarf warband are Warriors, Rangers, Iron Guard, Khazad Guard and Vault Wardens) you would need a hero from the Wanders iin the Wild list eg Gwaihir, Treebeard, Ghan-buri-Ghan

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
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Cheers for pointing that out! That is interesting and suggests an updated rulebook might be on the way! The knock to the ground rule still bugs me though!

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

Oh, so Gwaihir isn't necessary anymore to take an eagle, and Treebeard for an Ent?
Ghan-Buri-Ghan would let you take eagles and Ents (ignoring theme obviously)?

And does Radagast still count as a Wanderer in the Wild?

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Forth Eorlingas!