Hi guys! I have a doubt.. in the new scenary "Lords of war" a player gains 1 point for every fate point the opponent uses. Do models like the necromancer, or the nazgul immortal, or castellans of dol guldur, who use their will as fate, give point to their opponent when they use will as fate?
Thank you, sorry for the bad english

By scenery do you mean scenario? The two are completely different things; one is a forest or building, the other a type of battle. And you mean the Undying too, I guess.

Where is this scenario? If the wording of it specifically refers yo Fate points then no, as Will points do not become fate points if they are used as such.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

It's in the new sourcebooks. All of them. I would say yes, because they are used "as fate".

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"Leave Sauron to me."
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if its used as fate, yes you get a point. If its not, no points.

Sorry again for my bad english. Yes I mean scenario, and yes I mean Undying

I posted this question because here in Italy we have very different opinions and the GW didn't specify clearly that thing. Somebody says that they give points because the will is used as fate and so when used as fate the will point become a fate point; Somebody says that they don't give points cause they use will and no fate.
So I think to post this question in a uk's forum to hear different opinions and to undestand maybe if the uk's rules are more specific without any translation that can change a little bit the text.

I agree, that would be the logical decision, but the rules say otherwise. The rule specifically say "Fate". Will used as Fate is still Will, not Fate.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

@Draugluin, I never looked at the names of the scenarios.

I would agree with General Elessar on this.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

It wouldn't be the first time that GW made a mistake or wrote a rule with unintended consequences. Would anyone seriously be so pedantic as to actually tell their opponent "No sorry, you don't get any points for killing my Undying because he doesn't actually have Fate points, just Will"?

In my view, this is an obvious unintended omission / loophole on GW's part with an obvious solution. The objective is to wound Heroes and force them to expend Fate. In my view for the purposes of this scenario, Will points when used in Lieu of Fate are the same thing.

Oh, and FYI. I use the Undying.

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Gothmog and Elessar. It's biously a half-anal way to look at it, but the tules are the rules.

I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that the rules say otherwise.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Not entirely sure by your meaning.



Will points used in the same manner as fate points are not fate points, they are still will points. Thats like saying will points are might points when they are modifying courage even though they aren't, just because you are using it that way.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

But I did not say that did I? I said "for the purposes of this scenario" not "Will Points are exactly the same as Fate Points when used as Fate Point."

The objective of the scenario is to wound enemy heroes and force them to expend Fate. You are rewarded on how points of Fate you force your opponent to expend. Ergo, for the purposes of Scoring in this scenario only, Will Points when expended in Lieu of Fate also grant Victory Points. That, I think, is what was intended when the scenario was written and the answer that GW will give if it is ever FAQ'd. Otherwise, the scenario is completely broken and allows a player to effectively cheat by only taking Heroes that may use Will instead of Fate.


And your analogy with Will and Might is a false one because

a) I didn't say that Will are Fate Points. I said that Will Points also grant Victory Points - albeit poorly worded. I said



I thought the meaning of that sentence was pretty clear - that Will Points when used in Lieu of Fate would also grant Victory Points. Apparently I was wrong.

b) There is no Scenario with the Objective of making your Opponent expend Will Points. So the comparison is not a direct comparison.


Note that I'm not disputing the actual wording of the Scenario. - that you get Victory Points every time your opponent expends Fate Points. I'm saying that its clearly an omission or poorly written rule on the writer's part (who might have forgotten that things like the Undying can use Will instead of Fate). A better way of putting it would be "You Win Victory Points for every Fate Roll your opponent makes. For the purposes of Scoring, Will Points when used to make Fate rolls in Lieu of Fate Points also grant Victory Points).

Again, would anyone seriously say to their opponent "No, sorry. You don't get a Victory point for killing my Undying / Necromancer / Castellan because I used Will, not Fate." What happens if a player takes just the Undying, Necromancer and Castellans as his Hero? Does his opponent automatically lose?

That kind of rule bending to personal advantage is what would make people decline to play against you. (FYI, I'm not attacking you personally, just the kind of mindset that would abuse this sort of loophole).

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So according to the king a player must be punished in this scenario for bringing certain models such as: necromaner, undying, castellans, gandalf( rerolling fate would count as well if failed). It makes it abundantly clear that GW would make their own models obsolete by kings interpretation. No one would play those models. Will is not fate just like will is not might, but will can be used to pass courage. So does that mean I can use will as might since will can be used to boost a roll?
Asking a player to choose between allowing you to wound a model( killing it in most cases ) or risk giving the opponent victory points by saving the model( with will points) is ludicrous. Even in 'to the death' ithe scenario states fate point not fate roll. The wording is not in error, only the use of fate points can give VPs.

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Sorry fixed.

You're reading too much into this, for certain models, will is used "as fate", meaning that it counts as fate. For every wound that you "save", your opponent doesn't get a VP. It's as simple as that.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

That is how I read the intention Draugluin but hte actual wording is a cow.

Ah, another person who can't read...



How would it punish those models more than any others? I suggest you go back and reread my comment, because I never said that Will = Fate always. I said that using Will to make Fate Rolls should be treated equally for the purposes of scoring in this Scenario (as described by the OP). I am not disputing the Wording of the rule. I am disputing that the writer intended to omit models which can use Will instead of Fate.



When did I say that? Argue against what I have actually said, please, not what you think I have said. Your comparision to using Will as Might is absurd. There is no Model anywhere that can do that, so what the hell has that got to do with this issue?



No its not. How is that different to asking a player to choose between saving wounds and granting VP by using Fate?



I'm talking about the use of Will Points to make Fate Rolls instead of using Fate Points.

Whats the difference between granting VP to your Opponent when you use Fate, and granting VP to your Opponent when you use Will? (Undying). In both cases, you're either using Fate, or you have a special rule which lets you use Will instead. Are you really saying that a player should not be able to score if his Opponent has these kinds of models?



I'm not disputing that the Wording does not explicitly say "Fate Points". I'm disputing the suggestion that it was intentional to not include Fate Rolls made using Will points, such as by the Undying (who has no Fate at all anyway).


What you're arguing for would directly and disproportionately reward those same models.All a player has to do, is take any models which can use Will to make Fate Rolls (e.g. Undying). He then cannot lose the Scenario, because his opponent can't make him use Fate points.

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This. ^

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My (more regularly updated) painting blog:
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