Since when has the name of something affected what it does?

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Not to get sidetracked, but a name is a highly important thing that does indeed effect what things do... why else do you think that Tolkien made a point to name very nearly everything, including inanimate objects, like swords (including Eomer's- they weren't just legendary weapons)? It is because a name, ultimately, does carry a certain meaning and embodies a certain essence of a given thing. See the "Philosophy of Tolkien" by Peter Kreeft if you want more information.

Panic Steed is most silly. And obnoxious.

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

...show it a mouse?

In terms of GW rules, names are not important, with the exeptions being the word 'The' signifying named, and when two named heroes have the same name eg Shagrat, revealing you can only have one.

In the case of the Mumak it is described as a Mount, it mentions spellls which can't affect it, none of which are Panic Steed, it says it is immune to Terror which is irrelevant, (if the Mumak could not 'Panic' to pretend to take your argument, what do you call a 'Stampede'?). Thus the rules (stupidly) say that Panic Steed works.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

The name of a special rule (in this case Panic Steed) is important. Take Terror, eg the model causes terror. Take any of the mind control spells, all imply a form of control. Panic Steed literally means scaring the steed, and how it works is explained in the description. I don't understand what you are arguing over? If you ignore the name of the rule, the description implies the Mumak dissolves into thin air (ie removed from play). This is not the case as we all know from the name and description of the rule. The steed panics in fear and is removed from play. The name of the rule therefore very much affects how the rule is interpretted, to ignore the reference of panicking is simply ignorant. Therefore I say again how can you panic something that doesn't fear anything?



It also mentions names of spells which do affect it, none of which are Panic Steed. It is not only immune to Terror but doesn't fear anything (this is NOT irrelevant). To stampede and to panic are two totally different things altogether! Panic is caused by fear (something a Mumak isn't affected by since it is too dumb witted to fear anything). To stampede as explained in the rules is to be "driven mad by pain".

"When this happens the Mumak are likely to wreak mayhem and destruction among the ranks of their allies as much as their enemies"

It reads that wounding a Mumak and causing it to stampede because of the pain will drive it into a madness of destruction. There is no mention of it stampeding because it is scared for it's life. Panic and Stampede are completely different rules, read them again!

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

In the case of a Mumak, if we were to theme the Panic Steed spell, we would assume that Radagast did drive the Mumak mad, causong it to flee the field.

In no place do the riles say that Panic is caused by Terror. Literaly it could be, but the rules are specific, so no. Ignore the fluff.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

If names matter then in WOTR you can only throw weapons you find on the floor as the description says "Thrown weapons" I really enjoyed the day I showed Mr Troke that one.

Also if names mattered blinding light would be blinding and not just quite anoying.

Chill soul would not work against the horses of the religious (as most religions don't grant horses a soul)

Strengthen Will (note the captial letter) would only work on men named William who would be come stronger.

I know I am being silly with some of these but hey, this is the internet.
The panic steed spell says the steed rears and and throws the rider from the saddle then flees from the field.
Now the wording would imply again that the mumak should be removed but again there is no specific in the mumak's entry so no resistance is granted.

You could call the spell whatever you want, it wouldn't change what it does. I know that Tolkein named everything, I know that names are important in ME, but they aren't to GW. As Gothmog said, only titles matter.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

The name of a rule is just as important as the description, it adds details to how the rule works. The explanation of the rules after the description are in some cases brief (Panic Steed for example) therefore it is important to look at the rule in the context of what the authors meant. Panic Steed explains how the steed is removed from play. The rules description doesn't go into detail about why the steed rears and without the name of the spell it could imply anything. The steed panics in fear and is removed from play. Therefore to reiterate, the name of the rule very much affects how the rule is interpretted. We are getting off-topic talking about names, we could go into it but I want to keep to the point in question.



Read my answer again. It also mentions names of spells which do affect it, none of which are Panic Steed. It is not only immune to Terror but doesn't fear anything (this is NOT irrelevant). To stampede and to panic are two totally different things altogether! Panic is caused by fear (something a Mumak isn't affected by since it is too dumb witted to fear anything). To stampede as explained in the rules is to be "driven mad by pain". "When this happens the Mumak are likely to wreak mayhem and destruction among the ranks of their allies as much as their enemies". It reads that wounding a Mumak and causing it to stampede because of the pain will drive it into a madness of destruction.



If we assume Radagast drives the Mumak mad, then the Mumak will Stampede not disappear as per the rules "remove the model". The Mumak however won't flee the field as we all know. When Stampeding the opponent can move it off the field if it can reach the board edge but this is not what the rules imply. Even if it did imply the spell causes madness, the Mumak would have to move through other models in the way to reach the board edge. Going back to the main point you can't Panic Steed a Mumak because it fears nothing. I have explained why your point on Panic Steed and madness is irrelevant, the Mumak willl Stampede, not flee the field of battle.

The rules have not changed, just the interpretation by some because of a missing description. It still states the Mumak fears nothing (which complies with the Stampede rule as that reflects it's anger in taking wounds).

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

Does the Mumak have a saddle? Despite the lack of specific wording granting resistance do you not accept the description under the Mumak rules whereby it states "the Mumak itself is too dumb-witted to fear anything..."? There is a major contradiction in the rules if it can indeed be panicked from the field of battle.

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

That, just like the name Panic Steed, is just fluff and, unfortunately, has no bearing on the game.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

As Dragluin said, the fluff of a rul has no effect upon the game.



It is, the fluff and exact wording of the fluff have no bnearing on the game, it refers specifically to Terror and Courage Tests, it has no effect upon the rule.



Fluff has no bearing again. It seems that fluff seems to be the basis of your entire argument. If fuff had bearing on special rules, many profiles would be different.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Hah! This is quite amusing, honestly, but the point I was making regarding the importance of names was a philosophical one, in order to undermine Drauglin's implicit idea that names were not important. However, since Drauglin has since made a most satisfactory statement that is not issue-ful regarding the naming of things, then I have no problems whatsoever agreeing with Gothmog, when he says that for GW names aren't that important excepting in titles.

As for this particular argument, it has, in my opinion, run its course. Some will not permit Panic Steed to effect their Mumaks, some will, and until GW makes a genuinely official statement, we don't have a solid answer and it is in the 'grey zone' of rulings.

And as a random note to cereal_theif, as for soul in the sense you are defining it, then yes, most religions don't give them 'souls.' However, one could say, in a philosophical (Aristotilean) sense, that a horse does indeed have a soul. If one defines the soul as the principle of animation (permitting it to have at the very least, vegetative powers, and, for the horse, to have various other powers, such as self-movement), then a horse does indeed have a soul.

My apologies if I wander too far off the beaten war zone of this topic.

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

Have to call you on this one. 1990, Pope John Paul II stated that animals do have souls. Actually most religions do state that animals have souls, the degree to that "soul" differs per religious beliefs.






...Mumaks aren't affected by Panic Steeds!! (just in case anyone forgot where I stand)

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Free speech carries with it some freedom to listen. -B.M.

Because the pope actually has that kind of authority.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

@Drauglin- as I tried to point out earlier, it is a philosophical point in essence, not a religious one (per se). And philosophy is the handmaiden of theology. And JPII studied his Aristotle.

Silly Mumak. Now it's rampaging over to philosophy and theology. What is this world coming to?

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

This is a worthy debate and I'm willing to fight to the death, or at least my Mumak is



This is directed to Dragluin as well who seems to think the title of the spell is 'fluff'. The title of a spell or special rule is important because it adds details to how the rule works. The explanation of the rule (Panic Steed) gives no indication to why the steed rears. Therefore it is always important to look at the title and the description in the context of what the authors meant. The rules description doesn't go into detail about why the steed rears and without the name of the spell it could imply anything.

At no point in the ORB does it say anything about disregarding what is written. It also specifically never mentions the word fluff (but that's beside the point). I am taking what the LOTR design team wrote for the Mumak rules and explaining the reasons why Panic Steed can't possibly work on a Mumak. I have also answered your point regarding Stampede which was wrong and actually supports my argument that either the spell doesn't work or if it did work, and the Mumak was "driven mad by pain" then it would Stampede around the battlefield. Not disappear into thin air! Logic dictate it so, the rules dictate it so!

There is a saying from a rule in law that an argument from inconvenience has great weight. For the Mumak to be affected by this spell contrary to what the description under the rules state, is a great inconvenience or as they say an argumentum ab inconvenienti. I hope that's not too much fluff for you guys lol

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

It is inconvenient for aragorn to be transfixed too...
I think the important thing is the mumak's description states which spells it is immune to and does not state panic steed. Panic steed should NOT work on mumaks but due to this it does. So flip a coin.

BTW I love the philosophy side arguement. As a protestant I don't recognise the pope and neither do horses but for other reasons
A pope can't just change the rules, who gave him the authority? Did he write the rule book? Was he in the religion development team? Does he know a red shirt who knows a black shirt who knows the guy who wrote the book who told him on good authority that it wasn't so?
Jokes.

@cereal_theif- Then, my protestant friend, I'll take thy jokes as they are. But, if ever you were interested in having a correspondance debate about the authority of the Pope, then I would be happy to take you on.

Ah, but Aragorn being transfixed is not a fuzzy grey area, unlike the Mumak being panicked.

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

The name isn't actuall that important though. Also you are attemting to use real-world-logic and Middle-eath-fluff as the basis of your argument without considering the RAW which decree that the Mumak can, for some stupid and unfathomable reason, be affected by Panic Steed. As aforementioned, the spell is not listed as havingno effect, and the statemnt about a Mumak's immunity to all spell that don''t deal damage has been removed in the newer edition, and therefore, unless FAQ'd otherwise has no effect. The "explanation" of the rule doesn't have to make sense. tge fluff of the blackshield Captain says they have killed Elves and Dwarves by the score, but they can't have kiled scores of Elves. The title has no bearing on what is does, if the rules does not specifically counteract what another rule said (the Mumak rules do not counteract it) then the rule works. Forget the argument from inconvenience, it has no effect on game play, except in instances in which the rules specifically say to use common sense in thi way. The relationship between Panic Steed and a Mumak is not affected by that. It is not contrary to what the rules description said, in any case, een if it was, the descriptioin is for theme and fluff only and has no bearing in gameplay. It is purely a way to allow us to enjoy a particular rule and magine how it would be happening in real life, nothing to do with ganeplay. In accordance with this, I go back on my earlier statement about the Mordor Spider Queen, which I said was a named hero, because ruleswise it propbably isn't.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.