New Spear Support Rules

Fishlegs · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:15 pm

I'm still waiting for my new stuff to be delivered (in transit so could be anytime!). In the meantime, while I was up last night with a crying child I was thinking about the new spear support rules.

If these queries are covered in the new rules please just say and I will read them when they arrive.

I understand that spear support now counts as part of the fight so my questions are:

1: Do models supporting with a spear have a control zone?
2: Can archers still pick off spear support?
3: Imagine a model was being supported and wins the combat, yet fails to wound, the losing model moves back an inch. If the defeated model has priority next turn and charges its original opponent, is the supporting model now pinned in place since it is part of the combat?

Any thoughts?
Cheers
Tom

Bartelomeus · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:39 pm

Fishlegs wrote:

1: Do models supporting with a spear have a control zone?
2: Can archers still pick off spear support?
3: Imagine a model was being supported and wins the combat, yet fails to wound, the losing model moves back an inch. If the defeated model has priority next turn and charges its original opponent, is the supporting model now pinned in place since it is part of the combat?
Tom

1: They're in a fight, so no.
2: You would be shooting in combat so evil models can try, good can't.
3: I'd say yes since they're in base contact.

Good questions!, I'd like to hear if someone has another view on these matters.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:26 pm

3: Most likely not on its own. You are able to move out of the way for friendly models that need to fall back. Also, you can't be pinned between just two models unless there are terrain / obstacles in the way as well. But it does make it easier than before.

cal585 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:29 pm

I would actually disagree.

Fishlegs wrote:

1: Do models supporting with a spear have a control zone?
2: Can archers still pick off spear support?
3: Imagine a model was being supported and wins the combat, yet fails to wound, the losing model moves back an inch. If the defeated model has priority next turn and charges its original opponent, is the supporting model now pinned in place since it is part of the combat?
Tom

1. Not sure? What was it last edition? I believe it is still fundamentally the same.
2. Yes, it's clearly stated that they are Supporting and that these are special rules. They don't participate in heroic combats, can't be knocked to the ground and don't suffer wounds, which implies that they are not a combatant as such.
3. No. Supporting seems to be optional, not compulsory.

I can't find a clear answer though...

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:37 pm

In the previous version of SBG, spear support was specifically called out as NOT in the Fight. Therefore they retained their control zone and were valid targets for archery.

In the new rules does it clarify either way if supporting models are or are not in the Fight? We shouldn't make any assumptions that just because they contribute directly now that they are part of the Fight but it wouldn't surprise me.

Also, if a supporting model has multiple attacks does it still only make one "supporting attack"?

Bartelomeus · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:45 pm

Beowulf03809 wrote:

In the new rules does it clarify either way if supporting models are or are not in the Fight? We shouldn't make any assumptions that just because they contribute directly now that they are part of the Fight but it wouldn't surprise me.

Now the rulebook says: "A spear armed model can JOIN a fight by moving into base combat with..." that's why I think they're part of the fight.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:53 pm

I would say so. You are joining for all the positive and negative of what that brings with it. You can no longer be targeted by Good archers but also can be struck by the enemy model if you loose the Fight.

Unless there are more details I'm not aware of. Until we get together and purchase a community copy of the book none of us are going to be using these anyway (none of our players had the slightest interest in our own copy when we learned the price).

Bartelomeus · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:59 pm

Beowulf03809 wrote:

Unless there are more details I'm not aware of..

Like this detail?

New rulebook: "may not be targeted with strikes should his side lose the combat; he will also not be Knocked to the Ground..."

wowbagger · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:09 pm

nahh... that doesnt seem relevant ;-)

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:35 pm

Bartelomeus wrote:

Beowulf03809 wrote:

Unless there are more details I'm not aware of..

Like this detail?

New rulebook: "may not be targeted with strikes should his side lose the combat; he will also not be Knocked to the Ground..."

Thanks! I may pop into our LGS this weekend with my laptop and just...well...browse thru the rules a wee bit.

SouthernDunedain · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:45 pm

Bartelomeus wrote:

Beowulf03809 wrote:

Unless there are more details I'm not aware of..

Like this detail?

New rulebook: "may not be targeted with strikes should his side lose the combat; he will also not be Knocked to the Ground..."

That has been the case since before the ORB so that doesnt really help in this instance.

this is indeed a puzzling issue. I have been scouring the rulebook and the only clarification I can find is that a model only loses it's control zone if it is in base contact directly with a enemy model.

Best chance of getting a definite answer would be to email gamefaqs@gwplc.com

they might FAQ it next time around or email you a answer for you to share with us all.

Elessar Telcontar · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:12 pm

1 and 2 are clear. Supporting models are part of the fight, so they have no control zone and can be shot at by Evil archers (at a risk of hitting an Evil model in the fight).

A supporting model only contributes with one attack, no matter how many it has on its profile (unless this was changed in the new rulebook).

3 is tricky...I'd say that since the spear model can choose to join the fight, he can move away if he wants to.

whafrog · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm

cal585 wrote:

2. Yes, it's clearly stated that they are Supporting and that these are special rules. They don't participate in heroic combats, can't be knocked to the ground and don't suffer wounds, which implies that they are not a combatant as such.

Have to agree with that interpretation, for the reasons stated. Also, otherwise all these new higher bow limits are pointless

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:10 pm

So really the only change with the new supporting rule is that the model contributes one of its own attacks to the fight rather than simply an extra die for the supported model?

What about the partial quote given above that a spear armed model may JOIN the a fight? Is "join" being used loosely here and not actually referencing becoming a participant?

I know we can't share too much quoted text but appreciate what clarification can be provided.

Jobu · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:23 am

Remember that if it is a hero supporting that might may be used in the duel or strike. That does seem to indicate that the supporter is part of the fight and no longer has a control zone. But then again to be in a fight is usually defined as being in base contact with an enemy, which neutralizes the control zone, in this case the supporter would still have a control zone. Not sold on this either way but thought it was relevant.

cal585 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:00 am

Looking at it more, I have a feeling that GW wanted the model to be included in the fight for simplicity. What has swayed me are the following:
"A spear-armed model can join a Fight... does not need to be in base contact... to participate in the Fight."
"a supporting model may choose to Strike against a different enemy in the combat to that of the model he is supporting."

The wording that he participates in the Fight and can actually cause wounds seem to infer he is a combatant despite the following clarification that he is "considered to be supporting his ally" and can't be targeted/knocked to the ground/use heroics.

So:
1. I think it depends on when the Support needs to be declared. If at the start of the Fight phase, then they would have a control zone. If when moving into base contact, then none. It'd probably be easier to play without a control zone as that way you're not affecting the fight (stopping more models joining) and the model is probably too busy supporting his ally to engage a passing enemy.
2. I'd allow shooting in my games until GW clarifies it, though I'd probably read the rules as not allowing shots (if Good).
3. I'm still pretty certain that one does not have to Support if you don't want to, therefore you can't be pinned by charging an ally.

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:23 am

On a related note...

This is not specific to the new rules, but in general;

Can spear (or pike) armed model, "support" a friendly model that is on the other side of an obstacle (fence/wall/hedge) than it is.

Obviously their bases cannot touch as the obstacle is in the way, but I assumed if they were both in contact with the obstacle on their respective sides, then a 'support' is possible?

theavenger001 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:31 am

jscottbowman wrote:

On a related note...

This is not specific to the new rules, but in general;

Can spear (or pike) armed model, "support" a friendly model that is on the other side of an obstacle (fence/wall/hedge) than it is.

Obviously their bases cannot touch as the obstacle is in the way, but I assumed if they were both in contact with the obstacle on their respective sides, then a 'support' is possible?

Add to this, if one is on a hill, and the other is at the bottom, can they support? I would guess this would be the same answer, (no), as they have to be in base contact to support.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:41 am

They have to be in base contact. If they are, they can support, if not, they can not support. Simple as that.

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:02 am

Draugluin wrote:

They have to be in base contact. If they are, they can support, if not, they can not support. Simple as that.

Hmmm, yep thats Rules as Written, but there are clearly 'parallels' to be drawn from the rules on fighting across a defended obstacle...

I would have thought that if both models were touching the obstacle (either side of it) they should be able to interact beneficially. Afterall the spear or pike, will have a decent reach to lend its assist?

New Spear Support Rules

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