To begin with, I consider 600 pts to be pretty difficult to build an effective pure FB list since you can't afford enough named RWs.
Now, concerning your list, first of all you should drop the WK's crown. You do realise that since you have him mounted on a FB you 're paying 30pts for just one extra attack.
Secondly, you really want those 4 FBs gaining all their charging bonuses so what you really need is the most might you can get in order to perform as many heroic moves/combats you can so definately give him 3M.
Thirdly, I don't think that SL has much to offer in this army. You are not going to be out close combat long enough and some of the other named RWs' special rules will benefit you more.
What you really need is hitting power not protection from bows.
I find Khamul to be a no-brainer in these lists due to his ability to cut through hords of enemy Warriors with ease being able to outfight even elves.
KoU could also prove pretty useful mainly because of his ability not to lose will in combat and of his 3M.
Even the Betrayer could help with his "I am a flying Spider Queen" rule.
The Undying is pretty good for a FB army but not in this point level.
The DM besides his F6 has really anothing to offer to this army since his banner rule does not affect other Heroes.
Finally, the Tainted and the Dwimerlake, though they have some cool rules, are completely useless to our list.
That said, for a pure FB list in 600 pts I would probably use:

Khamul
Witch King at 3/11/2 and
2 plain Ringwraiths at 2/11/1 each

If I were to upgrade this list to 700, I would use:

Khamul
Knight of Umbar
Witch King at 3/18/3 or at 3/16/3 with a Morgul blade and
either The Betrayer or The undying.

You have to keep in mind that you should always keep your FBs closely packed in order to be able to benefit from each others heroic actions.

1) Ah yes, I forgot about the crown and the Fell Beast's attacks, consider it dropped and thanks for pointing it out

2) I can see the point in heroic combats, and hence the M upgrades, but might I ask, what is the point in Heroic moves? I mean, all it says in the rulebook is that they move before other models making none-heroic moves... the only real way I can see this being useful is if the enemy has priority, I declare a heroic move, and then move before my enemy does, but even then I think it would be better to wait and see what the enemy does and hence react to it rather than blindly just moving forwards... maybe I'm missing something though.

3) I really am unsure of your thoughts on the SL :-| granted Khamul, the KoU and the Betrayer are decent, and have greater staying power (or hitting power) once in combat due to their various special rules, I really do think the SL would benefit me more than that, due to the fact that this army will almost always be used against my Gondorian friend who likes his Rangers, and due to the new rules concerning warbands, would probably never see the light of day in a GW (speaking of which, would this list be legal in a GW, as the whole point of a Nazgul list is to have the 9, or most of them, and no one else...) - we also almost always have an open field, since I have no terrain and am too lazy/unskilled to make it That said, I'm not un-open to having other named wraiths replace him so will probably try 'em all.

3) How much of the Fell Beast's base has to be covered by the SLs 6' shadow-circle thing to count as being obscured by him?

4) Lastly, I don't have the rules for the Dwimmerlaik in SBG, if possible, could you direct me to them?

Thanks very much.

Good posts! Rifi has a point about the Crown of Morgul although if the Witchking is unseated he will still be a formidable problem on foot. For those 30 points it could be argued the WK can kill one more model per turn than normal.

I would agree about the Shadowlord for this army, if you are considering splitting up your Nazgul into two groups as a strategy (which isn't a bad idea - see below). To answer your question, it is any model within 6" of the Shadowlord so presumably 6" from its base...

I think by splitting the Nazgul into two groups you can force your enemy to divide into two groups also. When this happens, you have the advantage of faster movement, so can potentially manoeuvre around one group of enemy warriors to support your other 2 wraiths. You will also have an easier time of dispatching enemy heroes by compelling them out into the open. Also fewer models taking terror tests. Different scenarios will call for different tactics ofcourse, such as Domination (where the Shadowlord would be useless for example).

You could consider upgrading your fellbeast to perhaps an Armoured FB (+1 defence for 20 points) but probably not in a 600pt match

I'll go through the Wraiths I'd use in detail

Khamul
The worst magic caster amongst the nine. However he may 1) regain Will through killing enemies and 2) increase his F,S or A value by 1 for a point of will. He is a top fighter and should be able to dispatch enemy heroes in combat. You can't rely on his magic so the Undying won't benefit if Khamul isn't casting spells etc. Also remember he won't regain wounds, only will points.

Tainted
1 less point of Might and Fate compared to Khamul however he has two quite substantial special rules. 1) No Stand Fasts or Heroic Moves and 2) a one in six chance of wounding enemies in base contact every turn! Remember your wraiths can make stand fasts and heroic moves because they aren't Warriors. Also his other special rule means the Tainted is a 'Fighter' on par with Khamul and will be a prime target for enemy bowfire. If your opponent choses to outnumber the Tainted he will have to see if Seeping Decay has any effects and so long as the Tainted has the highest Fight value in the combat and atleast 2 attacks he should be able to cause utter carnage! You will want to retain ALL 12 Will points for combat.

Dark Marshal
Banner special rule is useless. He isn't a good as Khamul IMO, but is a potential second choice 'Fighter'. F6 is pretty intimidating but when you compare it to Khamul who can use Will to bump up his Fight and then regain multiple Will points through Wounds, it's a no brainer. Also the Knight of Umbar is a better choice too IMO (see below).

Knight of Umbar
14 Will and 3 Might combined with Armour of the Sundered Land and Combat Mimicry make this guy on par with Khamul almost. He won't regain Will but at the same time won't lose a point for being in a Fight it wins (which should happen a lot). A better choice than the Dark Marshal in this type of Army set up.

Undying
8 more Will points than Khamul. Standard casting ability. He may also 1) use Will as Fate points and 2) gain Will for each magical power cast by a friendly within 6". This guy pairs up well with the Witch King and his superior spell casting abilities. He also works well with a cheap ringwraith. The main power here is the 'Will to Fate' special rule which will mean so long as the Undying has a Fellbeast he should be able to hold his own in combat. He is more of a spell-caster than a Fighter and so should be chosen as a support option to cast spells, disrupt enemy heroes/banners/monsters etc.

Witch-king and Standard Ringwraith
As a fourth choice a standard ringwraith is quite decent. 100 points buys the 2.12.2 combo that the DM and Khamul have but there are better named alternatives that should be used (Khamul, Undying, KoU etc). For a 600 point force you will need at least one unnamed wraith or the Witch-king but bare in mind these should be kept as a 'third and fourth' choice (to make up the points).

Betrayer
2 extra will and reroll wounds but his Master of Poisons special rule effects enemy models too so I wouldn't take the Betrayer. It could come back to bite you on the bum if fielded against a Haradrim army.

Dwimmerlaik
No might but 16 Will points. Sap Fortitude only really works when the Wraith is behind a line of warriors safe from the action. Unfortunately he will be on the front line and with no Might may become surrounded easily. While he is alive he will run down enemy M,W and F but I personally wouldn't take this one.


600 pt Army list
2 named wraiths on Fell beasts - 340
WK on Fellbeast - 2.10.1
Unamed RW on Fellbeast - 1.9.1

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That's the whole reason. If you lose priority, you can still heroicly move and still gain +1 attack and knockdown, which is essential to causing as much carnage as possible, especially with Khamul.

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Simple. If you don't charge first you don't get the charge bonuses...

I 've always played it that as long as there is a part of the model's base in range then the whole model counts in range, the same as with any other area effect rule (banners, StandFast etc).

Are you sure about this one? I have no experience in this matter since I only play good vs evil. Is there a relative FAQ in any of the US tournament that use the blue on blue layout?

The rule reads

"Master of Poisons. All models with the ‘Poisoned Arrows’ and ‘Poisoned Blades’ special rule within 6"/14cm of the Betrayer must re-roll failed to wound rolls on a 1 or 2, rather than a 1."

It's open for interpretation but assuming the Tainted affects friendly and enemy models, it is reasonable to assume this rule affects "all models". Even if it doesn't (evidence) then the other 3 RW on FBs don't benefit from the rule. The Betrayer can reroll failed to wound rolls (a lesser power than others mentioned).

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Not really, with 6S he shouldn't need too bad of a roll to kill, usually a 4+ (unless against dwarves or some tough heros), rerolling the 1-3s increases you chances from 50% to 75%. Out of 6 strikes, you're almost guarenteed to kill at least 2-3 warriors a turn. Even against 7-8 defence, he would still have a 66% chance of wounding.

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I know but don't forget that all the rules are designed with the good vs evil layout in mind. He isn't suposed to fight against Haradrim but alongside them.

Cheers for the replies, I think I'll base my list around LordErkenbrands suggestion actually, as with dropping the Crown of Morgul I was probably going to try and squeeze in a second named wraith anyway...

So, the New list runs as follows

Witch King - Fell Beast, 2 extra M, 1 extra F - 130

Shadow Lord - Fell Beast - 170

Knight of Umbar - Fell Beast - 170

Ringwraith - 1 extra M & F, 2 extra W, Fell Beast - 125

Thoughts? I decided on KoU over Khamul because i'm a bit of a noob with named wraiths and would probably hum and har over commiting Khamuls will points when in combat, resulting in him either running out, or not using it at all. At least with the KoU I can have Khamul's ability, and on top of that provided I win my fights (without getting a kill) stay on the field.

The KoU is going to be my big nasty character killer, with the support of other wraiths, but the job will be mainly done by him. This is something I feel I was missing in the previous list, which I'm now glad to have, as when I was chatting to my Gondorian friend, he did mention Boromir... so that'll be a real baptism of fire for the KoU. I was thinking of either compelling, transfixing and over-whelming with 2-3 wraiths, or simply avoiding him untill his friends are dead, then doing the above.

Any other thoughts or suggestions let me know

Thanks.

I hear some tournaments are considering 1000pt armies. With that you could run all 9 on Fellbeasts, no other upgrades, but it would look awesome on the table.

Is the Will Of Evil rule the same as it was in the old sourcebooks? I hated that one because it meant that whenever a RW took real action, he died a little inside. Feels counter-intuitive since they'd take delight in the suffering of anyone who defies the Eye.

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Re-rolling to wound strikes is just not on the same level as the ability to regain Will (Khamul) or at least to prevent the use of it (KoU). With 3 attacks (6 to wound) most RW on FB will be able to dispatch the enemy warriors in combat

Baldrick - let us know how you get on

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Will do!

I'm hoping that provided I get all my Uni work done this week Thursday Friday that I can have Saturday off to do a battle, testing out this list is a huge incentive! - the only downside is that it may either snow making a battle very unlikely OR my Gondorian friend simply wont turn up :-\ as he's incredibly unreliable!

Hi again guys

First off - apologies for reviving this thread from a couple of years of slumber/death, but I have (honestly!) just managed to test my Nazgul list that we knocked together many moons ago (due to dropping lOTR for a while, Uni, my unreliable LOTR friend, and my other friend taking up LOTR)...

Anyway - the Nazgul list we made:-

Witch King - Fell Beast, 2 extra M, 1 extra F - 130

Shadow Lord - Fell Beast - 170

Knight of Umbar - Fell Beast - 170

Ringwraith - 1 extra M & F, 2 extra W, Fell Beast - 125


Squared off against a Rohan list of the following:-

Captain - horse and shield

Gamling - Horse... don't know if he had a shield

10 x Riders of Rohan - horses, bows, hand weapons, shields

roughly 17 x Rohan Royal Guard, Horses, Shields

-----------

And I'm glad to say I won! First time out.

Some general points I learned though:-

1) The Nazgul have got to be aggresive (almost extremely so) in order to rack up the kill count, by taking the initiative and charging large numbers of foes, often with other nazgul, and that they should take an opportunity even if they're going to get counter-charged in the same turn (because they can still knock over their enemies...)

2) Might is an essential for all of them - heroic moves and knocking up combat results really helped immensely, because it got me out of sticky situations, and also Khamul the Easterling might well be a good replacement for the Witch King because of his abilities surrounding W (though the WK might stay in for cool factor alone...)

3) You've still got to break enemies apart... I led a huge group of royal guard on a right merry dance around the battlefield with 2 wraiths whilst the other 2 destroyed the 10 horse archers

And finally... 4) Keep track of how much M/W/F you've got left!

Thanks for all your help guys - I'll try to keep the thread updated with future battles, and I'd greatly appreciate any more tactical suggestions you have. This thread has been extremely useful (re)-reading in preparation for yesterday's battle.

Could I just ask a quick question whilst you are talking about Wraiths on Fell Beasts? If your own Fell Beast is stood directly behind a line of your men, can your opponent make a shooting attack against it? Even though the men are hiding the Fell beasts base but not the model, obviously because of its size? Or would you need to take in the way rolls? Thanx guys

They can shoot at it freely. The base doesen't matter.

Another day another victory for the Eye!

This time the above faced:-

Eomer - Horse, Shield

Eowyn - Horse, Shield (unsure on their equipment)

10 x Riders of Rohan

15-20 Warriors of Rohan - Bows

5 Royal Guard on Foot - Shields

10-15 Royal Guard on horses - Shields.

This battle was much more closely matched, because I had a little less luck with the rolls to kill, and even (since my friend wised up) managed to lose a fell beast to close combat (the shadow-lords, due to repeated bad luck, though the rider himself survived the game) , as well as ran a couple of wraiths literally down to their last will point before my friend eventually just gave up since he'd had enough.

The main thing from that battle which I learned for the future is that Fell Beast armies can be defeated by vastly superior numbers if the troops are not bunched up into things like Shield walls - if you cannot charge at least 2 or 3 guys a turn (and win) then you simply do not have the will to get rid of them all - things like the Knight of Umbar and Khamul can put that off for a bit, due to their special qualities surrounding will and combat, but they can't be expected to carry the other two I think...

Oh, one other thing I'm beginning to notice - objective games are going to be extremely difficult with Fell Beasts - simply because in my experience the army relies on aggression and repeated charges into the enemy to win, otherwise you get shot to bits - as far as I can see holding objectives goes pretty much counter to that strategy, so if/when I come to do objectives, a more nuanced approach is needed I think

Anyway, thanks for all your help everyone I hope this thread has been useful to other up and coming Nazgul generals (or just those interested in the Nazgul or fell beasts in general)

- Oh, and to the above question, I imagine, though I don't know, that because the infantry can actually see the fell beast itself, that they can shoot at it. If the wraith was on foot behind another infantry-man, then either he would not be seen, or alternatively I imagine, would at least get in the way rolls thrown at him too - and even then if it's a regular bow shooting at him, the enemy would need a 6 then a 5 to wound him... not very likely!

What is the Shadow Lords special rule with Archery?

Anything within a short distance of the shadow lord, including the Shadow lord himself, is covered in a kind of dark veil - the result being that all shooting attacks directed against the Shadow lord or anything within that viel are considerably more difficult to hit - great for pretty much nullifying enemy bow-fire on your nazgul

Is that just to hit? Then roll to wound as normal afterward?