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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:50 pm 
Kinsman
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- sorry, can't post specific rules.


Last edited by Baldrick on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:51 am 
Elven Elder
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We aren't allowed to post the actual rules like that, I would advise taking those down before you draw the attention of an admin.

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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Ok - thanks for the advice.
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:59 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Would fielding an all Nazgul army on horseback be any good?
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:10 pm 
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NotLegolasJustTipsy wrote:
Would fielding an all Nazgul army on horseback be any good?


Try reading the thread from the beginning ;) - we pretty much covered the whole foot/horse/fell beast thing, the consensus was go full fell beast or go home. Given that I've tried the full fell beast version myself a couple of times, I have to agree with that style of play - horses just won't do the amount of damage you need them to do when compared to a fell beast, and they're considerably weaker and easier to kill too.
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:34 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Yeah I can see that a Fell beast army would be much better, it's just gonna cost a fortune to collect so many fell beasts. How many different fell beast poses are there out there? So as to have different looking ones on the battle board? Without obviously converting ones yourself.
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:05 am 
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There's the old metal Witch King version, the old upright metal fell beast, the plastic kit and a simple yet highly effective conversion to the plastic kit done by our very own simmuskhan in the wip section - all four would look fantastic on the battlefield, and all would be distinctive and unique.

As for the discussion at hand, I just wanted to day thank you to the original poster. I've been entertaining the idea of a wraith army for a while now, and the information in this thread has helped a tonne.

Just wondering though, have you used the new channeled/unchanneled rules for magic? If so, what effects and differences in balance, tactics, etc have you come across so far?

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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:54 pm 
Kinsman
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NotLegolasJustTipsy wrote:
Yeah I can see that a Fell beast army would be much better, it's just gonna cost a fortune to collect so many fell beasts. How many different fell beast poses are there out there? So as to have different looking ones on the battle board? Without obviously converting ones yourself.


Yup, that's the downside of it unfortunately :( - the sheer cost in £... but hey, when was this hobby ever cheap?

Wayland Games is currently the only place I know of which is cheapest, bar eBay if you're very lucky. http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/

The bigger issue I can see is storage... just to hold ONE fell beast (at the moment the only one I've got) takes a full shoe-box...

I'd stick with the plastic ones though if you're looking for customisability/conversions for poses - it'd be much easier than metal, and because you'd have to pin the metal one in multiple places, considerably easier to build too ;) - for poses this one I've particularly liked, and may well copy - http://simbattleboard.blogspot.co.uk/ , but you could also spruce them up a bit by adding scenery, as this guy has done ;) - http://galadriels-mirror-cbalke.blogspo ... chive.html

Dont forget also that the bases too can make all the difference, as that last link shows - decide on a general theme I say (e.g. grassland, snow etc) and then vary each individual base according to either your tastes or what you think the Nazgul might be doing... a combat Nazgul say, might have a cool thematic base with a bunch of bodies on it, with his fell beast posed in an attacking way, whereas a support wraith, like say the Shadow Lord or Undying, might well be in a more... passive pose on a more passive base :) - it's only really limited by imagination I suppose.

KnightyKnight wrote:
There's the old metal Witch King version, the old upright metal fell beast, the plastic kit and a simple yet highly effective conversion to the plastic kit done by our very own simmuskhan in the wip section - all four would look fantastic on the battlefield, and all would be distinctive and unique.

As for the discussion at hand, I just wanted to day thank you to the original poster. I've been entertaining the idea of a wraith army for a while now, and the information in this thread has helped a tonne.

Just wondering though, have you used the new channeled/unchanneled rules for magic? If so, what effects and differences in balance, tactics, etc have you come across so far?


And I'm glad this thread has been of some use :) - it's certainly helped me multiple times when I've considered doing a fell beast army (and now that Christmas has co-incided with being into LOTR again and seeing the Hobbit, well, all the factors to make me do it have finally aligned in the heavens I suppose :p )

Unfortunately as yet I've not got round to using the new rules, so I simply cannot help you there, but from what I've found so far in my battle experience with these, magic is almost always a back-burner anyway, as I don't have the will to...not waste exactly, but to risk in trying to pull off a spell which may not work. So far (and touch wood, it won't happen in the future either), there's been no hero or banner which has been such a threat to the magnificent men on their flying machines that it's warranted being transfixed/compelled to death - usually the sheer power of 1 (or 4 if it's really nasty...) fell beasts has been enough to wipe out whatever has challenged them, so magic doesn't see much use in my battles. Though my main opponent plays Rohan so (no offence Rohan players!) the real heavies of good heroes (e.g. king Aragorn, Boromir of the White Tower etc) haven't reared their heads against the Nazgul yet...

Anyway, as I say I'm glad the thread is helping more than just me - do you think it should be stickied or something in case anyone else finds it useful? Having re-read it a couple of times it does seem to basically give the ins and outs of a Nazgul army, and when the first few pages were being written I got the impression there wasn't really a thread that similar to it on this site, though I may of course be wrong...
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:06 pm 
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Best thing to do with plastic fellbeasts is to build them but leave the rider, wings and base unglued. So much easier to transport that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:39 am 
Elven Warrior
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Brill post Baldrick, thank you
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:38 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Whilst I am collecting my army of fell beasts, what army would you field supporting just 1 Fell beast, and with 2 Fell beasts? I have a large Moria army plus large Fallen realms army and a few Isengard pieces! I have no Mordor pieces.
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:14 pm 
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NotLegolasJustTipsy wrote:
Whilst I am collecting my army of fell beasts, what army would you field supporting just 1 Fell beast, and with 2 Fell beasts? I have a large Moria army plus large Fallen realms army and a few Isengard pieces! I have no Mordor pieces.


Hmm... that's a tough question.

Personally I like to go with themed lists, so basically stuff that's all from one area of middle earth (e.g Gondor, Mordor etc), but as a general rule for supporting Nazgul I'd probably go with a large force of regular orcs kitted out in a balanced way for shooting, close combat, and supporting in close combat (i.e sword and shield, bows, and spear/spear and shield orcs).

With those in place, it's generally just a case in my view of fielding enough orcs to overwhelm your enemy through weight of numbers, perhaps with drums and banners in there too to ensure your morale stays high and you move quickly - after much losing and experimentation that's the formula I came up with to defeat my old Gondorian shield wall friend anyway.

That said, I think if you were to run a regular list with a Fell Beast Nazgul leading it, I'd actually be tempted to get 2 Fell Beasts (not necessarily named Nazgul, but just some kitted out regular ones perhaps) rather than one, and then an orc horde with banners and drummers and so forth to overwhelm the enemy. Experience has taught me orcs will almost always lose one on one fights with good troops, so it's best to try and surround them to kill them through weight of attacks - the element the fell beasts add is 3 fold I think - 1) as something big and nasty to shoot at or charge instead of the orcs, made more-so if you got the Shadowlord for his rules regarding shooting, 2) Some much needed force when it comes to charging in which even crap-loads of orcs cannot bring when they charge. I'm talking knocking down enemy heroes and troops here, after which you pile in with the orcs to finish them off, and finally 3) Some added mobility which is good for breaking apart shield walls/leading soldiers on a merry dance around the battle field, ultimately breaking up enemey forces, due to reason 1) and making it easier for the orc swarm to destroy the stragglers/guys who didn't chase the Nazgul


I haven't quite made a list like that yet though ;) - though I think I may do in the future :)

Hope I helped.
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:07 am 
Elven Warrior
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Could you describe to me in a little more detail Baldrick how to play 4 ringwraiths on fell beasts. I feel that I would get trounced if I played them. I usually play against Gondor Arnor type armies, with plenty of bow fire and high defence pieces. Would you spread them out across the battlefield or would you keep them together? Would you charge into his models or hang back casting magic? What magic is best to use? Thanx x
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:38 pm 
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NotLegolasJustTipsy wrote:
Could you describe to me in a little more detail Baldrick how to play 4 ringwraiths on fell beasts. I feel that I would get trounced if I played them. I usually play against Gondor Arnor type armies, with plenty of bow fire and high defence pieces. Would you spread them out across the battlefield or would you keep them together? Would you charge into his models or hang back casting magic? What magic is best to use? Thanx x


Hmm... I'll do my best, but bear in mind I'm using out-dated rules, and only have a few battles under my belt ;)

Ok here we go...

1) ALWAYS take the shadowlord if your enemy brings shooting of any kind. Fell beasts don't actually have that many wounds and, at least under the old rules, if the enemy hits the model, then the majority of times (on the roll of a 1-4) they will hit the beast, rather than the rider, with most human bows requiring a 6 to wound. It's not very likely that they will wound, having had to roll usually a 4+, then a 1-4, and then a 6 to do it, but with the Shadowlord's rule it makes the likelihood of any shots getting through to him or anything within 6' much much less likely, so its a must have in my view. Whenever you're advancing toward the enemy, always stick all the wraiths into a blob with at the most 6' between them all, with the shadowlord in the centre, so that they are all shrouded by him, and so are all equally difficult to hit.

2) Play aggressively, but pick your fights carefully. You'd be surprised at how many guys 4 fell beasts can take on and win against (as I was and am...) but they can only do so if they take on multiple enemies at once, and use their high number of attacks combined with knock-down (even of other horse mounted cavalry) and a high-fight value to absolutely make sure that the thing they charged is dead.

- Further to that point, you need to keep an eye on your might, and know when to use it properly. The key to victory is always getting the charge with the fell beasts, so if you're finding yourself in a tight spot surrounded by enemies, and they win priority, be prepared to use your might to call a heroic move and either charge them, or get the hell out of there.

Positioning is also key, if it doesn't look like a fell beast can take on all the stuff that could charge it (or if it gets counter-charged), then back it up with another fell beast.

A good fighting wraith or two are also recommended here I think, particularly ones which can conserve their will reserves provided they win a fight, such as the Knight of Umbar or Khamul the Easterling. They've both got their ups and downs, and Khamul is probably going to be better at killing stuff than The Knight, but equally, if you're not careful you can burn through his will faster too if you use it up to increase his stats, the Knight is probably better for beginners, because he can mimic combat stats of his enemies, and equally doesn't lose will if he wins a fight either.

Lastly, a note on heroes and banners - depending on how nasty it is, you may want to compel or transfix them to kill them. If it's a regular joe hero like a captain, you may be able to get away with only one or two wraiths charging them without compel or transifx and just let superior attacks and strength get the job done (but make sure you use your fighty wraiths to do it), but if it's a heavy-weight like aragorn, boromir or their ilk, then absolutely 100% of the time compel, transfix, then charge with enough force (perhaps even all 4 wraiths) to make sure that it dies no matter what happens. Banners I'd treat in the same way as regular joes though, no compel required essentially, but always be sure to get rid of them if you can, because remember you always need to charge - good guys need to roll a courage test at -1 to try and charge the wraiths due to their evilness + terror, and anything which helps them out is a threat, so destroy it!

3) Lastly, a note on magic - remember that your army runs on will, so over-use of it, or poor use of it, WILL lose you your game. NEVER commit to using it either through combat, or magic, unless the pay-off is going to be worth it. If you imagine the scenario that your wraiths are facing off against a regular captain and a bunch of soldiers for example, it might be better to just charge everyone in and have done with it, because your charge and attacks if you've committed enough wraiths are probably enough to get the job done, but in a second scenario, where it's say Aragorn + a bunch of warriors, then it's probably better to transifx/compel him before charging to ensure that he isn't his usual power-house self - the point is that it's not worth the risk otherwise. As a general rule, I don't use any magic at all unless its absolutely necessary.

4) Finally a note on tactics - it is possible to divide your opponents army if you split up your wraiths into groups, break your 4 man group into 2 groups of 2, then send one to the opposite flank of the enemy - they then have to make a decision - risk a flank charge, or try to chase you away/reinforce the line, in the first case, fine, you can then choose to flank or not, but in the second, you've forced them to move troops to deal with the new threat, or better yet, they're chasing you and you can lead them on a merry dance while your other wraiths mop up the rest (just be sure to always stay more than 10' away...) , or alternatively, to put another wraith in between their lines to give you the chance to break the lines up further.

Think that's everything I've learnt so far :) - How many points are you playing, and against what army? How does your opponent usually play, and what do they usually use?

Hope I helped :)
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:48 pm 
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Now that fellbeasts can brutal power attack do especially think about
HURL!! Its is like blasting people. It knocks loads of people to the ground, kills people and so lessens the chance of being charged next turn too.
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:04 am 
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Tend to play anything from 500 - 750 point games depending on the time we have to play. My opponent has Rohan and Minas Tirith armies. Normally he plays Minas Tirith, playing either the Gray Company or Rangers, lots of warriors of Minas Tirith, Citadel guards, sometimes he throws tree beard in. He never uses Aragorn or Boromir for some reason, but always plays either Saruman, Galdalf or Radagast. So would 4 Ringwraiths on Fell beasts have much luck against that army? x
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:45 am 
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They would be torn apart by Radagast. Never bring a fell beast with him on the board.

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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:55 am 
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NotLegolasJustTipsy wrote:
Tend to play anything from 500 - 750 point games depending on the time we have to play. My opponent has Rohan and Minas Tirith armies. Normally he plays Minas Tirith, playing either the Gray Company or Rangers, lots of warriors of Minas Tirith, Citadel guards, sometimes he throws tree beard in. He never uses Aragorn or Boromir for some reason, but always plays either Saruman, Galdalf or Radagast. So would 4 Ringwraiths on Fell beasts have much luck against that army? x


the fell beast army i run is 600pts.

- and if he brings rangers then definitely bring the shadowlord.

Don't have much experience against wizards really... but they would complicate things somewhat because of their ability to cast stuff back at you, forcing you to either try to resist the spell (and use more will to do it) or just take the punishment of said spell - win win for your opponent.

Draugluin wrote:
They would be torn apart by Radagast. Never bring a fell beast with him on the board.


Does Radagast have any special rules about beasts or something? Apparently you can't post specific rules but is the general jist of it that beasts are his speciality or something?


- In any case, wizards are going to be a pain me-thinks for fell beasts to deal with, and honestly I'm a bit stumped there... my only advice would be to do 1 of 2 things:- 1) Avoid them like the plague, and stay out of range of their spells (which for example with Gandalf is about 12') whilst you kill off segments of his army. Luring segments of enemies after you will probably be the best course of action here. Or 2) Attempt to kill them as fast as you can, but in the same manner as great heroes like Aragorn and so forth - transfix/compel + mass charge of all fell beasts to ensure death - or, depending on how far into the enemy lines they are, perhaps consider charging into the lines with as much force as possible to try and wipe out the enemy infantry surrounding them, and then next turn calling heroic moves to charge the wizard themselves...

Other than that I don't really know what else you could do for wizards, as I hardly ever (if at all) fight them. :roll:

Quick question - does he mount the wizards on horses at all? And what's his other general tactics like? (e.g. shield walls etc)
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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:19 am 
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Radagast has Panic Steed. bye bye fellbeasts.

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 Post subject: Re: Nazgul armies in SBG - viability? and at what points?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:41 am 
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SouthernDunedain wrote:
Radagast has Panic Steed. bye bye fellbeasts.


Damn... can't find anyone with that spell in my paper-back rulebook so I don't know the range lol, but yeah, that sounds like a nasty spell certainly - my advice there is to ignore him like the plague then and concentrate on killing everything around him then. Then when everything else is dead even if he does managed to unhorse (or unfellbeast) 4 wraiths, that'll probably be enough to kill him, or would make for one hell of a magic duel! :-D
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