Is Instantmolding Legal?

KnightyKnight · **Posted:** Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:02 pm

Have to say that I agree with janner, on just a basic level of principle I wouldn't be too happy if my opponent was using molded/copied stuff in a tournament. A friendly game, fine, but no no in my eyes for the big and strict events. Its not particularly fair on your fellow gamers if they've gone and spent their money gathering the items they need whilst you're there with copies of the stuff.

janner · **Posted:** Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:27 pm

imrail wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it.
Don't you think that the people of GW don't make/sculpt/craft their own items?

A lot of miniatures have options without a miniature with the options available.
Don't say that you molded the item, what they don't know can't hurt you.

I think there is a huge difference - legal and moral - between crafting/sculpting your own pieces to either convert an existing piece or make an entirely new one, and making a mold of a GW (or other manufacturers) item to produce your own knock off version/s.

One is producing original work, the other is theft. You can dress it up how you like, but it's pretty simple when you get down to it.

whafrog · **Posted:** Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:42 pm

@LordElrond, from GW's point of view, if you made a mold to make more shields and then visit a tournament, it would be easy to get approached by others to make a contract deal. After all, you already have the mold, all you need is material and time and you can pump them out. There would be no way for them to track that kind of side deal, and if they allow it in public events they're opening a pretty large door to it.

So if you're going to play in tournaments hosted by GW (or with GW represented) you're probably better off buying a box of Galadhrim and using those shields for your high elves. Less expensive than finecast high elves, and GW still gets a cut.

LordElrond · **Posted:** Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:34 pm

Does anyone know of that other site that did high elf shields (sort of in the shape of an 8 )?

Ukfreddybear · **Posted:** Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:16 pm

Dead Marsh Spectre wrote:

mad_dan wrote:

If you are sculpting the model from scratch (and then making casts), then you are pretty much safe, provided you do not try to pass it off as a GW item.

Not strictly true. I had a sculpt commisioned from scratch of the uruk hai scout captain with 2 handed axe done and had a few casts made. I decided to put one on ebay just out of curiosity. I was emailed after about 2 days of the listing going live by Warner Bros (not sure why warner Bros would email as i didn't think they had anything to do with the rights to lotr but anyway) I was made to take down the listing , got a slap on the hand by ebay and was told to stop selling these casts or else lol Needless to say the casts are no longer for sale. I was VERY clear in the listing that this was a scratch sculpt cast and not a GW original.

I've looked into this Kev and the reason is actually quite simple. You had a model based upon a popular movie franchise sculpted. Not so bad in itself for a one-off in a private collection, but when it became reproduced and sold on, they see that as crossing the line, because you hadn't purchased a licence from them to sell merchandise based on the lotr IP. That's why it had to come down. It sucks, but makes sense.

goblin_king · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:54 am

*Edited comment*

LordElrond · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:51 am

Are you sure?

SouthernDunedain · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:28 am

What you have to remember here lordelrond is that all the 'answers' are assumptions and opinions. Best thing to do? Go into the GW where the tourney is being held and ask the person in charge.

janner · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:18 am

goblin_king wrote:

Molding anything, for your own purposes is not illegal.

This is not correct under 'a GB perspective'. Firstly there is no such thing as GB or even UK law. England and Scotland have fundamentally different law codes, but I wont bore people with the difference between Civil and Common Law. In this case it is not relevant as, across the EU, copying someone else's copyrighted item counts as IP infringement aka stealing. The clue is in the word 'copyright', which basically means the 'right to copy'.

I know that this sounds awfully dull, but it is the correct advice to give you based on existing law. However, firms are unlikely to bother their time and money chasing someone down who has molded a single item for their own use. So it's down to your own conscience.

Unfortunately, I think it unlikely that you find another company producing anything that looks similar to what you want for exactly the reasons stated above.

Kind regards

goblin_king · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:43 am

Hi Janner, based on your comment, I thought it best to remove my previous one.

I'd imagine from this, that it sounds like using anything copied, even for your own purposes is illegal.

However, Scibor Miniatures do some shields that look similar in shape and design to the LOTR elven ones, that I have seen other people use. Similarly, GW will not let you use these at tournaments or in their stores.

janner · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:19 pm

No offense intended goblin_king, just didn't want there to be any confusion on this that might also get the forum hosts in trouble.

I think Scribor sails very close to the wind sometimes. however, i know that he is very careful not to fall foul of GW's renowned legal team.

There used to be a rule in Warhammer World about the percentage a figure had to contain of GW parts to be allowed on the table. I know that they used to be quite open on this, especially if the figure was in a book or codex but unavailable from them. I had no problem with my Mr. Dandy Thunder Wolves when the codex first came out. Indeed I even got the thumbs up from Phil Kelly during a Tempus Fugitives weekend (under my other alias, Durfast Spiritwolf) . However, things are no longer that permissive. Hense the move of the Fugitives away from Nottingham. But that's a whole different thread

Regards,

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:04 pm

As many have said, molding is technically illegal reproduction. Even for 'non commercial / personal use'. Obviously for personal use or your LGS it is doubtful anyone will ever notice or care. If you post it online you risk exposure. If you go to a GW store or formal event you are asking for even more scrutiny. At a minimum expect them to ask you to take your models off the table if they notice.

That being said, it would really help GW's popularity, IP rights and gaming if they offered bitz for LotR. You used to be able to get a few things like this individually. I had ordered several Elf shields, a couple little weapon/head sprues, some loose spears and a couple "mace of the Witch King" bitz just before they stopped offering LotR bitz. Now that the new rules introduce numerous weapon options and you risk confusion issues in the game if you're not able to play WYSIWYG, you're at a rough place with issues like this. Many players lack the skill or time to sculpt decent looking weapons. Using greenstuff and plasticard I can do something fair but my swords and axes will look way oversized for the LotR range. And the only way I can do a weapon swap is by trashing one of my other models (not a cheap option at these prices). And that’s assuming I even have one that has a viable weapon. And shields are an even bigger and more likely issue. Elf are often brought up, but personally Uruk Scouts are ones I regularly have issues with wanting more shields.

Yes, there are easy ways of producing weapons and shields from existing GW models. If, like me, you live in an area with the nearest draconian GW store several hours away and you would need to drive several more hours past that to get somewhere that ever has an actual GW-hosted LotR event, none of this may really matter. But if, like me, you would honestly prefer to buy official little bitz such as weapons, shields, heads, it would be in GW’s best interests to offer them again and at a reasonable cost. Some of those molds probably exist already. The Elf Shields and weapon/head sprue did at one time at least. Although that sprue only covered some options and other models have been added to the line since then they could always do a second head/weapon sprue that included newer stuff. We could then get our models more WYSIWYG, as well as adding more variety to our forces, without edging over any legal lines. But if the company won’t even offer a legal option (more affordable than destroying one overpriced model to customize another) they’re going to invite ‘creative alternatives.’

goblin_king · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:15 pm

They used to offer bitz for LOTR. The reason they stopped was due to warehousing costs, it's just not worth the money storing lot's of items that rarely sell. Blister packs of shields is a completely different kettle of fish and I think would be the ideal solution.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:51 pm

goblin_king wrote:

They used to offer bitz for LOTR.

Yep...that's what I mentioned too. I ordered a few things before they stopped but didn't have time to get everything I wanted.

goblin_king wrote:

The reason they stopped was due to warehousing costs, it's just not worth the money storing lot's of items that rarely sell. Blister packs of shields is a completely different kettle of fish and I think would be the ideal solution.

I don't play or shop any WH/40K stuff, but I thought players of those games have told me that GW offers lots of bitz for modifying those models. Maybe they just meant that options come in the kits, sort of how we get some extra options in the Orc / Warg Rider set.

I don't suggest GW offers lots of individual bitz, but for example if they had a few blisters like you suggested at a fair price (< $15 ) I'm sure many of us would be happy. All of these are model components they already have or could very easily produce. In fact, I think the Rohan shield would be the "hardest" only because their existing ones all miss the central boss.

Shields of Good (4-6 shields each for Elf, Gondor and Rohan)
Shileds of Evil (4-6 shields each for Isengard, Mordor, Moria)
Weapons and Heads (2-4 of these per blister) <-- these were cool...really miss them.

Gene Parmesan · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:23 pm

Personal use - just do it, who cares. They're robbing you all the time

Tournament, probably not in case you got caught.

Rangefinder · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:54 pm

My vote is that it is legal for personal use.
But, violates copyright/IP for commercial uses.

Base and paint your models well. It will be practically impossible to detect. If questioned, say the conversions were made from sacrificial miniatures purchased expressly for this purpose. I doubt they will CAT scan them.

I understand it can be difficult to make an exact reproduction with instantmold. If this is your case, I would come clean with the official. I always say, "The truth will set you free".

GW set themselves up by producing profiles where there are no models for them. Take for example, Reavers and the Mahud Tribemaster. How are you to obtain that model without converting or having bits available?

It's a hobby. It is supposed to foster creativity and a little friendly competition. I also understand that this is a business for GW.

It is a rock and a hard place for sure.

LordElrond · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:26 pm

So I can't just use scribor shields?

Rangefinder · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:14 pm

I would not bet your life on it.

Have you reached out to your local GW shop?
Do you have any intention to enter a GW tournament?
Cover your bases. I would like to know what you find out.
I have never been to a GW tournament, so I am no authority. Contact them.

Dollars to doughnuts those models would be bounced at a GW store.
For a friendly game, among your own group, you could put it to a vote.
My buddy and I play a pretty strict WYSIWYG. It's for clarity.

SuicidalMarsbar · **Joined:** Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:14 am **Posts:** 1712

Honestly don't worry about it, the staff at my local GW didn't even know spiders weren't cavalry. They never questioned all my orc captain conversions and even let me use my scratch made Arathorn. Using a few home-made shields will be fine, they will likely assume you just bought it from a bitz box or something

Guitarheroandy · **Posted:** Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:49 pm

LordElrond wrote:

So I can't just use scribor shields?

No. They are very strict about it - it even used be the rule (and presumeably still is) that you couldn't use conversions/models/bits from Warhammer models in a LOTR tourney (and vice-versa) due (I think) to copyright hassles linked to the deal with Newline Cinema/whoever else deals with LOTR stuff.

Basically, it's a similar situation to that of copying records/tapes/CDs (yeah...I'm quite old..I remember records and tapes... :-D

) Loads of people did it for 'personal use' and assumed it was legal. It wasn't...still isn't. People still do it cos it can't be policed effectively. However, in your sitation, taking 'copied' stuff to official GW tourneysin my opinion, is unlikley to go down well if you are 'caught and you can't use anything by any other manufacturer at all...

Sadly, it seems that we have to make a choice between making conversions that extend our creativity and allow us to 'plunder the marketplace' for the best stuff (e.g. those lovely Scibor shields, which I am certainly using) against playing in 'official' tourneys. Personally, the former wins out for me every time, but then I hate tournament play, so it is an easy choice for me. At the end of the day, Lord Elrond, you have a straight choiceif attending the tourney:

Risk it
Ask the organisers
Just play with unconverted models

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

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