These are the most confusing rules that have ever been introduced, they're so terribly worded.

Couldn't I give every one of my orcs a hammer for free and have them use bash in every fight?

What is the advantage of my grimhammers having hammers if I can just change a Warrior of Erebor's hand weapon for a hammer? It would be much simpler if there was a selection of appropriate weapons in the profile that you could convert to or use the default model for.

If anyone can clarify these rules clearly, i'd be grateful.

VG

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You can give anyone any weapon you want, as long as it doesn't say a specific weapon in their wargear, eg. sword, and also providing that they are not unarmed.

Can a model also special strike using its throwing axes?

They seem pretty clear to me



If you arm all your orcs with hammers and always bash, that's fine. All you'll be doing is knocking stuff over. You can't strike to wound if you bash. Every weapon has a pro & con.



Grimhammers are an exception to the rule as they have pick-hammers which allow them to either bash or piercing strike. No other models can take pick-hammers. So if you arm your erebor warriors with hammers then they can only bash.


That would actually be a pain. The weapon strikes are balanced enough as to not need a points value. I dont tend to convert models to have different hand weapons, don't really see the point.


*sigh* read the rules elrond. Models cannot fight using their throwing weapons therefore they cannot special strike with them.

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But erestor can fight with his…

It says : when throwing these daggers or using them in a fight.

Erestor's profile was written before the new rules were released, back when you could fight with throwing weapons. However, the new rulebook specifically states that you may not fight with TW. I think Erestor is in a grey area atm until he gets FAQd.

In general terms, the most recent publication always overrides (hence why Gandalf cannot take his cart) but who knows. They may FAQ him to say he might fight with his daggers. Until that time tho, I would say he has to fight with his elf blade and if he wants to re-roll 1's, he has to feint (like every other model).

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I could have sworn Erestor's throwing weapons were already FAQ'd, but can't find it back now.
As the rules very clearly show he should have the re-rolls at all times, I'd actually say his special weapons override the normal rules.

Although I've seen it mentioned several times that Gandalf can no longer use his cart, I have to disagree there. Gandalf as published in the Hobbit rulebook can indeed not use it, but I interpret that to be only for the armylists relevant to the Hobbit: Thorin's company and the White Council.
After all, why otherwise would the latest Free Peoples FAQ (published after the Hobbit rulebook) state specifically that Gandalf the Grey from the Fellowship armylist may be mounted on Shadowfax for 15pts?

You make a good point but see below.

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Lots of different issues here, most of which do seem to lurk in something of a grey area.

Firstly, the Beserker weapon is a sword, it's clearly meant to be a sword and trying to attritube piercing strike to the fancy bits on the end is taking advantage of the rules. Whilst it's not described as a sword in the Beserker's profile, if you look at the two handed weapon rules in the rulebook, the Beserker is used as the example of a model with a two-handed sword. As far as I'm concerend that's case closed.

The Gandalf's cart issue is trickier. On the one hand it's very hard to argue with the FAQ that Southy quotes and yet on the other hand Coenus Scaldingus makes a really good point that demonstrates the FAQ proving the old profiles are still active. As always I tend to try and work out what the intention of the rules are and I'm pretty sure that the passage Southy quotes is not intended to invalidate wargear/options. Instead I think the intention was to theme the army lists and ensure that certain wargear is only availbale in certain circumstances. As such, my interpretation of it is that Gandalf's cart is still available but you couldn't have Gandalf on his cart in the same warband as Thorin's company, that would have to be the Gandalf from the Hobbit rulebook who can't have his cart. Moreover, as it's such a grey area I certainly wouldn't have a problem with someone turning up with the cart as it's more than likely that they either didn't know about this ruling or mis-interpreted the FAQ. Hopefully they'll clear it up soon.

Finally, the issue of converting weapons to benefit from special strikes is another that frustrates me. Yes, if your warriors are described as having hand weapons then you convert them all to have axes of hammers or whatever you like but you shouldn't. The rules were written with the intention of making players interact with their figures, paying attention to their wargear and making individual combats more interesting as fights would vary from combat to combat, not to allow cheesy gamers to suddenyl hack off all their models hand weapons to get an in-game advantage. My Feral uruks have swords and F4 so rarely fient, I could replace all their swords with axes and make them even better but I won't, why? Because my ferals have swords. You should use the models with the weapons they come with, anything more is manipulating the rules for an in-game advantage which, unfortuantely, the current rules allow you to do.

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Sent an email to GW about two of the issues here, as adressed at length by Dr Grant above (which I hadn't seen yet, but doesn't change the fact that nobody really knows).

Gandalf's cart is simply a grey area (how suitable!), although I must say I'm also biased by 1) having that model and 2) wanting to use it in my Shire army (because it's a great model too). =)

Especially the swapping of weapons (or adding them to models that previously had none) is another annoying issue, in that both the main rulebook and the FAQ (relating to models with no shown hand weapon) only say: look at the model. At no point is it mentioned that the model could be changed, which can both mean that people using conversions to their advantage can be encountered, but also people who convert a model purely for aesthetic value (my converted Dwarven shieldbearer happens to have a sword, to differentiate him further from the Warrior he used to be), who then apparantly have to use different rules.

Thank you! this is what ive been saying from day 1. GW changed profiles to say "hand weapon" to streamline everything. All this weapon swapping is not even based upon a rule but a defintion of what a "hand weapon" is. Its things like this that suck the fun out of min-wargaming, people twisting the rules to abuse the system.

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As a rule I choose to convert my models for mostly aesthetic reasons, and also practical reasons, when I'm sculpting a model, I often give them an Axe, this is mostly because I like the look of them and their damned easy to sculpt.

I tend to find that special strikes can bog down the game, as such I only use them when feeling rather whimsical.

Just today in a battle I lost Bolg to 5 rohirim (being cocky) and calling a piercing strike.

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While I do totally agree and I am quite the opposite of a cheesy gamer, I do also like to get the most out of my points and giving a hand weapon that I won't use to a warrior who would benefit greatly from another variety of hand weapon just feels inefficient. My example of giving all of my orcs hammers is an extreme one, but as it would make a big difference in a battle if they had flails and staffs and it does frustrate me that somebody with the time and effort to convert a load of their models to another weapon could have an advantage over me.

I won't be changing all my 5pt Mordor Orc's weapons any time soon, but might chuck in a flail here in and there.

EDIT: Think about a Mordor Uruk with a flail vs 6 WoMT. If he wins that fight, which is at least 1/6 chance of happening (i'm terrible at math) he gets 6 hits at strength 4. Throw in the possibilities of 2h weapons, banners, buffs etc and you have some serious imbalance if i'm correct :S

Just my thoughts
VG

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Very much agree. Using the pointy bits for a piercing strike would be like trying to split and light a match using an axe while people are moving the match and trying to kill you. Not very effective...



Also agree, because this is in keeping with how multi-profile models have been used in the past. IMHO what they meant in the ERRATA was any profile changes for specific lists.



This doesn't bother me so much, if someone wants to take the time to convert a bunch models then so be it. I might think it's cheesy (I think special strikes in general are poorly thought out and cheesy) but if they do a good job on the conversion then it could add flavour. Besides, I believe this was hashed out way back when the rules were first released, and converting seemed to be something GW supported...or I could be remembering it wrong.

The only diferent weapon models I got its 6 uruk hai scout with axes cause text say they used it and we had 1 uruk hai captain scout with such a weapon, 2 handed which for him is ok, the remain just go 1 hand axe.

Now what frustrastes you more than most might be that even on special weapons on models like elves, uruks, dwarves and men is that you lose defence or fight value, losing each can be a tool to your models defeat as well, although only the goblins benefit compared to all the rest, cause they are the weakest (only more or so the game to hobbit standart) so anything that they got just reduce a bit their already mediocre defence or fight value in which you cannot wound to 2+ with this game all compared to other races, and since there cheap no biggie.

Was kind of annoying the other day getting axes on goblins from goblin town, they are cheap and when they lose the fight they get defence 1 from 3 (still wounding on 3+ no matter what) and those pesks get minimum S4 up to 6 :/
Unless its stated if their defence reduces to 0 and auto kill themselves I think the game minimum is 1 no matter what...

I honestly think weapons rules are poorly implemented and ypu should be re written. The Gobelins case seems trully broken as the essentially gain a reroll 1 to wound for free for instance.

at least that effect reducing fight value of 2 to 1, so the actual D3 its useless no matter, you just lose 1 point no matter the roll, also the axe or flail, reduce at most D3 to D1 (still getting them wounded on 3+) for the counter benefit they get from all of it which I think its the army that benefits most, probably after hobbits, hobbit armies migth be dirty cheap this way.

I think there's a world of difference between sculpting and converting for aesthetic reasons and gluing on a different weapon for an in game advantage, for me it's all about intent. Grungehog you mention sculpting a model, in that case of course you should give it whatever you want, if you like axes, give the model an axe. If someone wants to convert some Rohan warriors with big cloaks and give them all axes to represent Helmingas then great, I'm all for themed conversions/sculpts that give you a boost. For me, that's not a problem, the stuff I don't like is, for example, gluing axes onto the back of Wood Elf archers so that their dagger suddenly becomes an axe, it's unfluffy, uncreative and cheesy in my opinion.

I must say that everything I'm saying is entirely hypothetical, I'm yet to actually play anyone who's, to my mind, abused the weapon rules. My experience is that this is more something that could be exploited than something that is actually exploited.

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