Woodland Terrain areas and physical trees are not the same thing.

If, as players, you decide that an entire table or section of table is 'difficult woodland terrain' but only have 40 individual tree models to scatter in it that is fine. Treat the agreed zone as difficult woodland terrain, allowing woodland creatures to move about it fine while impacting other models. Use the physical tree models as the WYSIWYG obstacles for movement and shooting purposes. It sounds like this is what Dr Grant is saying above for what they do.

We have some random shaped and various sized green felt cut outs that we lay down to mark our these difficult areas and can put 1-5 trees on them as the unmovable, obstacles within that zone. Woodland creatures can move around within the zone, everyone else is limited. But no one can move the trees or ignore them. This is really not much different than the above example except more visually identifiable (there is no question of exactly where the terrain areas start and stop).

We also have some hills and other physical terrain pieces with a base, flock, bushes, rocks, etc. Depending on how these were modeled they may or may not be considered difficult woodland. It's best to discuss this in advance of the game starting.

Trees on bases (1-3 trees per base) may have an inch or more wide base around them. If these are standing in an otherwise open part of the table, do you consider this little area of terrain as 'difficult woodland' or is it still open terrain that just happens to have a couple trees growing...the base means nothing and it's only the obstical tree to consider. Again, just a second of chat before the game clears it up.

The initial question was if physical tree models can be moved to allow a woodland creature (specifically Treebeard) to move someplace they cannot otherwise move because of the physical tree. Although there is still some disagreement on this I would stand fast on saying "no" in most cases (I have to say 'most' because I am reasonable and open for discussion), but ONLY if we talk about it before the game starts. Once models start getting deployed it's too late for most of that.

Even a highly detailed table like OMW posted pics of above would only take about a minute or so to go through and discuss. If the players can't agree, roll a die, accept it and move on. Not taking this minute in advance could lead to more wasted time or even an argument and hard feelings during the game.

"This whole area from the river to the edges of the table is difficult woodland terrain, but only the ten tree models have any impact on In The Way and block movement and cannot be moved. Rest of that zone is just difficult terrain. This area over here is rocky difficult except for the parts that require an obvious jump or climb test based on the model. All other bushes, fences and the houses are WYSIWYG"

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actual rules
The actual rules are on page 58 of The Blue Hardback edition. Fighting in the Fortress/defending gaps. There is a reference to when gaps to small for the bases to fit. Read it.
On page 83 of the HBG in the woodland creature it clearly says the creature can not move through tree trunks or jump obstacles.I don't have a problem with this.
However, A woodland creature can not jump obstacles. That means Elves can't cross a 1/2 inch tall Hobbit fence or a row of flowers.
Is that what was meant? I hope not.


That is not what the woodland creature rule states. There are rules for moving through gaps and that is not one of them.
The rule is terrain is set up in a mutually agreeable manner. Trees can be fixed or decorations decide beforehand.



It is not hard to understand. You can't win the argument so you misstate the rules/argument for your advantage. Power gaming 101
The tournament judge will decide.

The new vs the old
The example on page 58 of the Blue Hardback is not in the Hobbit Hardback. I can only speculate that it is a change or an omission. I will make sure there is room for the figure base on anything I build in the future.

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Oh what tangled webs we weave when trying to walk through the woods of Middle Earth!

I completely agree about 'the point' and the funny thing is we're laid back too! I think you might be getting the impression that this base-ruling is incredibly stressful and serious as you reference tournament players and power gamers but I can assure you this is not the case. I've played multiple times against Southy and Cereal and they're amongst the most laid back players you could hope to meet, friendly, forgiving and fair. The base thing is just our (in the UK scene) standardised way of making everything seem fair. I'm sure if you came over for a game you'd have a great time with us too, it's just sometimes players' intentions get lost in the toneless void of typed text. The craziest thing is I can't think of a single game where any of this stuff has actually come up, we're giving our opinions of what we would do certainly not what we all worry about from game to game.



Not quite, we cover the board in loose trees so it 'looks' like a wood but none of the table counts as difficult ground otherwise everyone will be moving half speed for the entire game! For me the oodles of extra dimensions added by scattering 40 trees around (blocked LOS, In the Way rolls, diving behind a lone tree for cover etc.) is more enjoyable than big patches of ground that reduce movement. As for your other point about the base the tree's on counting as difficult ground, they're all mounted on 40mm bases so the width of the tree is the same as the base if not wider. To physically walk around the tree you have to walk around the base so what the base counts as never comes up, we simply ignore it.



Of course not, the 'can't jump obstacles' bit clearly means whilst attempting to move at full speed through wooded terrain, not at any point during the game. Essentially if a model wants to benefit from the Woodland Creature rule it must simply move, not perform any complex actions and, IMO, as it can't pass through tree trunks, there must be room for its base to fit.

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"It is not hard to understand. You can't win the argument so you misstate the rules/argument for your advantage. Power gaming 101 "

Willow please stop citing this phrase. Though me, Dr Grant and SD are all top players in the UK we are not power gamers. Dr Grant (currently 2nd in the country) even invented the "d**k" card for people who are too gamey that rules blur common sense. I love played against DG and SD, they are among two of my favourite tournament opponents. Fun, fair and sensible.... and they are easy on the eye.

We have presented rules, current, you present rules historic and out of date.

Though I love the hobbits in trees... imagine trying to draw LoS for anything other than fellbeasts.... hmmm fellbeasts which couldnt charge you because htey cant land on obstacles if they wobble n fall. Power gamer tactic idea... don't tell Ed Balls Fellbeast Master, he will cry.

Anyway p83 wins all. Cant move through tree trunks... nor elephant trunks.... nor swmming trunks... nor truncated sentences and words

Edit: inflammatory word removed

It is not meant, it is not written.
From the rulebook:
Note that this doesn't mean that they can automatically climb terrain in those areas, nor move through tree trunks or jump fallen Obstacles.
Now, they dropped some words to avoid tedious repetition. The full sentence would otherwise be:
Note that this doesn't mean that they can automatically climb terrain in those areas, nor [automatically] move through tree trunks [in those areas] or [automatically] jump fallen Obstacles [in those areas].
As I'm pretty sure you very well know and realise. Don't make things more complicated than they are. The rules literally state what it supposed to be done (in this case!), and while you may disagree, answers to rules questions shouldn't involve houserules - just the actual ones written in the [current] rulebooks.
(Also, Elves wouldn't have to jump over something 0.5" high - they're a bit taller than 1", so anything below half that size is crossed without any requirement to jump...)

Hello, let's keep it cool, people

Cool like a mammoth frozen in the Russian tundra for 20,000 years. (Was planning to illustrate it with a picture, but those poor animals don't generally look too healthy... )

I disagree. I think your added words are not at all linked to what is intended. The automatically is linked to first statement claus but not the rest. To suggest otherwise is to open another can of worms.
A wood can contain rocks (as shown in willow's terrain) and there may be lothlorien style tree house with ladders. This first statement just allows you to not fly up these obstacles.

The rest is to make clear an age old question which was about passing through trees.

I have messaged my friends in games development GW for an answer "to keep us going" until the FAQ next year.

Surely the [in those areas] should be true for all as well (the point is that the rule concerns just woodland areas), as indeed is the [automatically] as otherwise it is indeed stated that figures can't jump over any obstacles.

Let me further state that it is definitely strange how no specific notion of 'impassable terrain' is given; that should have been the case. However, following the descriptions for terrain, I end up with trees as being 'Unscalable terrain': Obstacles (not open, not flat) that cannot generally be jumped over (too tall) and are too impractical to climb. Individual pieces of scenery may differ of course, and may allow figures to actually climb the trees (would be nice if you happen to be a group of Dwarves trying to get away from wargs and fire!). As such, if you would have to climb those obstacles, but can't climb them.. they are, in fact, impassable.
Coming back to those earlier, []-filled quotes, this means that they can't move through tree trunks automatically and they can't move through them anyway, which gives that same conclusion - figures cannot in fact move through trees. Who knew.

Next point of discussion: when does an Ent become so treeish that it counts as a woodland terrain piece?

) If you look closely at my first illustration the woodland terrain is indeed an ent.

But they are woodland creatures and woodland creatures can't jump obstacles it is on page 83.
You know I don't think that was the intent of the rule.


I have discussed rules from several rule books and given page numbers during this discussion to establish precedent for my opinions . I have also given page numbers from the most current rules and provided photos to illustrate my opinion. Your arguments are not convincing. Misrepresenting my argument to provoke ridicule is hardly toneless.

and elves can't jump flower beds

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I'm with Willow on this one.

The idea that Treebeard can't move between two trees that are 50mm apart because he's on a 60mm base is daft and not supported by any rules. The rules on page 21 refer to models (that's heroes and warriors, not scenery) while the rules concerning base size and doorways/hatches are no longer present in this edition.

This is a good thing, because there are many other absurd situations that can be created by saying 'if the base won't fit then neither can the model'. For example;

1) The small door in the Osgiliath Ruins. So a man can't fit through a door that a man built for men to use? It's a doorway. Read the current rules on fighting sieges - there's no mention of base sizes in relation to doorways any more.

2) The archways in the Osgiliath ruins are just less than 40mm wide. Are you seriously saying that a swarm of broodlings (tiny, weeny spiders) or a Shade (ethereal) can't pass through because their bases won't fit? That would be absurd.

This is a whole can of really stupid worms that we really shouldn't be opening.

So, we can clearly see that models can squeeze through gaps that are smaller than their base size because it is not prohibited by any current rule. You could, if you really wanted, house-rule that models moving through passages narrower than their base move at half speed to represent them squeezing along sideways because that would be characterful......... but not allowing a Cave Drake (a creature build for squeezing down narrow tunnels) to pass through two rocks that are closer together than it's base width is a bit silly and not supported by the rules.

So, we're left with the 'Woodland Creature' rule and what it means; It is not there to rules-lawyer Treebeard out of Fangorn because two trees are 2" apart rather than 2.5". It is there to prevent more serious abuses like I have badly illustrated here.
The bit about not being able to move through trees prevents the elf player from abusing 'Woodland Creature' to avoid the Orcs control zones and charge the Shaman.

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To qualify though. We need a balanced apporach so that Dragons and Balrogs don't go squeezing through windows....... but that really comes down to scenery discussion before a game.

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You are right agreeing ahead of time will take care of that too

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Feels odd that a model cannot move in between friendly models, but it could move through a similarily small gap in a wall, doesn't it?
How about this simple preceding sentence on the same page:
"To move a model, measure how far it can travel and then move it along the correct amount." Along. Not: pick up and drop it somewhere else (unless it can fly!). Can you move a model along a path leading through a gap it can't actually fit through? Unless you squeeze really hard: no. Can it then move there? No.


Good to know they didn't design that very well then. (People may have been smaller back in the day though, I've had the same problem in various medieval castles, while I'm not incredibly tall or so. Definitely no doorway for Númenórean men.. maybe it was a cat flap? )


The base is and always has been "the space that the miniature needs around it" (yep, it's in the rules, p9). Don't know why broodlings need that much space, but they do. Maybe it's claustrofobia, perhaps they simply need quite some personal space. Also, spirits aren't ethereal: they can't move through any terrain and can be killed by a simple arrow or spear.


I believe this is called 'cherry-picking'. You think that it is fine when Treebeard moves through trees (even though that definitely is not allowed by the rules, the book literally states that), but another figure with the exact same special rule can't do that exact same thing?

Can you houserule spirits to fly through walls, Treebeard to move through trees and spider swarms to be killed by Dwarves with insecticides? Sure.
Is discussing the terrain beforehand essential? Yes. A very easy one to use is the one that models can't move somewhere they can't actually move. Supported by the rules it seems (!), prevents loads of strange situations (models moving somewhere, but then trapped because they can't move back 1" along the same path for example) and is very clear: there has to be a limit somewhere, and base size is indisputable.

And here was me thinking this thread had wound down on Wednesday evenng, ah well, anything to distract me from work



This is not correct, base size is absolutely crucial and completely integrated into the rules. It's actually covered in the 'Basic Principles' section, before the rules even start on page 9:

"The base represents the amount of space the miniature needs around it. Models should always be mounted on the bases they come with...Whenever you measure from one model to another (or to a particular point) always measure from the closest edge of the model's base"

This clearly means that the base is an integral part of the model and it is the base width that determines where the model is on the battlefield and where the model can move. There are advantages and disadvantages to each base size - Radagast's sleigh's large base size means his Aura of Dismay affects more friendly models but it also means he can be trapped more easily and his manouverabilitiy around the tabletop is limited. If these rules weren't in place everyone would be placing their banner bearers on dragon bases to cover a wider area, particularly as, by your logic, you should then be able to squeeze the banner bearer through any gap you please, irrelevant of his base size.

The note on unscalable terrain on page 28 is also useful when it states that if you "cannot balance a model without the risk of it falling off, cannot be climbed. This means we can satisfactorily rule out situations where models are balanced atop tree leaves, teetering on rock pillars or other unlikely situations"

This rule clearly states that if you can't fit a model's base somewhere, you can't place the model there, base size completely determines where a model can move in SBG. This passage also hopefully answers some of OMW questions about impassable terrian from a few pages back - that's why you can't place your models in trees.



As shown above, this is covered by not only the rules but the basic principles of the game, and as you point out in your second post, is absolutely crucial to prevent models on large bases moving through areas they should not be able too. As 'silly' as some of these things may seem in the game, this is simply one of the divergences from reality that are absolutely crucial to enable a tabletop wargame to work.

It's really pretty simple, even if you think a model should be able to squeeze through a gap thematically (a cave drake moving through a narrow gap in two rocks for example), if the base can't fit, it cannot. This is absolutely crucial, otherwise the whole system of control zones and model placement falls apart:

"Yes I know the control zones of your two models clearly don't allow enough room for my 25mm base to pass through and charge your shaman but in reality my model wouldn't have a base and would turn sideways and slip through the 10mm gap" etc.



I have to be honest I don't think this example helps your case at all. In your diagram the Wood Elf is free to move through the woodland without penalty due to his Woodland creature rule but finds his way blocked by a tree. As you rightly point out he cannot move through the tree (page 83 WC may not "move through tree trunks") and so can't charge the shaman. How is this any different to saying that Treebeard, also a Woodland creature, can't move through a tree?

Consider an example outside a wood, imagine a gap between two tall pillars (like the Titans Erebor board) that is 45mm wide - any model on a 25mm or 40mm would be able to move through the gap but any model on a 60mm base would not. This is really cut and dry, I've never played a game where anyone has tried to argue anything to the contrary.

The model with the larger base is free to move normally but cannot get between the two pillars and so must go around.

In exactly the same way, in a wood a Woodland Creature is free to move normally but cannot get between the trees and so must go around.

As for the Osgiliath doorway thing, I'm not sure of the door you mean as my ruins are tucked away in a box but assuming its man height then it's sorted in exactly the same way everyone in this thread has argued at some point or the other - with a brief chat beforehand. These ruins form a major part of Warhammer World battlefields and before every game I've ever played there we always say 'you can move through wherever your base can fit' which gets you through most doors. However, as you say, infantry models should clearly be able to move through that doorway and so that is normally decided, by mutual consent, at the start of the game. What I have never seen is anyone with a monster heavy army saying 'it doesn't matter where any of the scenery is because I'm going to ignore the base size of my models and just squeeze them through whatever gaps I please'



Thanks, I moisturise.

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You are taking rules from various parts of the rulebook and using them to infer a rule that simply does not exist. You are effectively trying to present your house rules as legit.
There are rules that govern how much space models need in relation to each other.
There are rules that govern how you deal with linear obstacles and area terrain.

There are no rules that deal with how much space a model needs to go through a gap between vertical obstacles. That needs to be discussed between players based on the models and terrain. Read the seige section again, specifically the movement part. Models can move freely through doors, no mention of base size in relation to the size of the door. That means trolls can move through man-size doorways that their bases won't fit through..... and it has to be this way in order to have a fun game.

Miniatures game rules almost never cover every eventuality that can happen, but claiming that you need such prescriptive rules for game balance/mechanics just does not fly when you can use linear obstacles and LOS blocking terrain in combination with control zones to good effect already.

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Not in any way, shape or form. As I said in my first post way back when, I've never even considered this before and it's certainly not a house rule. I think you actually moved Treebeard through a wood where his base couldn't fit when we played at the LC and I didn't give it a second glance.

As for taking rules from parts of the rulebook and trying to infer something else, again, I disagree. When the rulebook states "The base represents the amount of space the miniature needs around it" IMO that plainly applies to everything, it doesn't say "...the amount of space the miniature needs around it except for when moving models through terrain" the base determines everything about movement in SBG and I haven't played a single game against a single player that's ever argued otherwise. The fact that our interpretations of that line differ doesn't mean that you're right and I'm trying to make house rules legit.

As for trolls moving through man-size doors that's clearly silly and not the intention of the wording. "models can move freely through doors" so a Balrog can enter a Hobbit hole? No, of course not. The Siege rules in the Hobbit book are famously vague, they're a set of guidelines for allowing you to play siege games, not a hard and fast ruleset which should be quoted to determine standard SBG movement. If anyone's "taking rules from various parts of the rulebook and using them to infer a rule"...

What are your thoughts on the pillar example I gave? Surely a 60mm base can't fit through a 40mm gap?

I've also yet to see anyone give a convincing counter argument to the fact that the Woodland Creature rule states that models cannot "move through tree trunks" which for me is the most important sentence in any of the last 3 pages.

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'Woodland Creature' is a red herring as it doesn't apply to anything else other that woodland creatures and trees. The notes on page 9 are not hard rules, rather a general principle. Extrapolating them beyond that leads to absurd situations as discussed previously..... Radagast or Treebeard being useless in a wood, for example. This should be avoided as it is obviously daft.

I would be happy with a 60mm model moving through a 40mm gap. If I were to put a hard limit on movement to stop stupid situations in either direction (ie Balrogs going through tiny windows) I would do it on half-base width. You avoid either end of stupidity doing that. You don't penalise Raddy for his big base as much, but he can't fit through a normal doorway.

You could also appropriate the jump/climb rules if you wanted more detail;
A model cannot move through a gap narrower than half it's base width.
A model may move through a gap narrower than it's base width by taking a jump test, on a roll of 1 it simply does not move.
A model can move through a passage that is narrower than it's base width, but longer than it's base by taking a climb test. On a roll of 1 the model simply does not move.

This game was never meant to be an optimised tournament system, it evolved from a scenario driven system, so the moment you stop a goblin going down a passage because it's 20mm wide rather than 25mm I think you're starting to miss the point.

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I am not going to bother repeating myself, especially if it is entirely ignored anyway...