Treebeard and Woodland Creature

Bilbo · **Posted:** Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:02 pm

Oldman Willow wrote:

SteveVenezia wrote:

Those questions don't address the bone of contention here. I don't think anyone disagrees that models can't walk through trees. The question is can models that could obviously fit through gaps do so even if their base is slightly too large. It looks like the general consensus is no, which surprises me, so it'll be a question to ask and clarify at tournaments.

I don't think there is a general consensus. S.C. friends have made a ruling on the GW wood with nothing official till 2014. "The Most Important Rule" and set up terrain in a mutually agreeable manner is unchanged. I build my terrain so that the bases of the models will fit. So I hope this issue will not come up in my games.I have a house rule that covers it in the unlikely event that it does. I hope the official GW tournament organizers will make a ruling that every one can agree to.

Good call OMW,

Man this thread is going to bang on and on until we have a FAQ or tournament ruling!

cereal_theif · **Posted:** Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:41 pm

Actually as I have stated so many times it DOES.
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If the tree is impassable and as it says on p8-9 of the rulebook the base is part of the model then one cannot move where the MODEL doesnt fit. Regardless of whether the "human" aspect can fit

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Damian · **Joined:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:59 pm **Posts:** 246

Quote:

it says on p8-9 of the rulebook the base is part of the model

It doesn't actually say that. It mentions the base representing space and then models should always be on the bases they're supplied with, but it does not say 'The base is part of the model'. It isn't in some cases, you can't shoot at a model's base, for example.
Similarly, you wouldn't insist that your opponent charge the base of a prone model if his head was closer, despite there being no caveat in the 'Prone' rules to allow it. Strictly speaking a charge has to be base-to-base. How RAW do you really want to be?

Check out the Cavalry rules, specifically for doorways. Cavalry can go through a doorway if the mount fits. I'd bet that the doorways they had in mind were those in the Osgiliath set, there's probably a few of them on the design team's playtest tables. I imagine they'd playtest their rules on the sort of GW terrain that customers would be likely to buy. That'll be 40mm bases through 30mm(ish) doors then.

cereal_theif · **Posted:** Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:34 pm

It say
"Cavalary models cannot pass under doorways or ceilings that are too low" and then proceeds to tell you how to tell if it is too low.

How is this linked to the base not counting? It is height not width. If (when riderless) you can stick the mount through the doorway then the model can fit. NOTICE this doesnt imply baseless.

I never agree to models on 60mm bases fitting through the doors at osgiliath. Troll or horse. The base doesnt fit and the base is the thing by which we judge the movement. The game is linear so we play it linearly. Else I can bend what you are saying to allow things you would never agree to.

Damian · **Joined:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:59 pm **Posts:** 246

Quote:

How is this linked to the base not counting?

What doorways do you think they playtested with? I'll bet there were 40mm bases flying through those Osgiliath doorways during play testing, and Games Dev only worried about the model's height.

Mind you, that doorway is pretty high, so maybe they were thinking of the doors in the Mines of Moria set. I can't think of any low, wide doors in GW's range of terrain.

SteveVenezia · **Joined:** Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:15 pm **Posts:** 31

This is what concerns me:

In this situation you would say the horse can't move through the arch, despite the model itself being able to fit?

cereal_theif · **Posted:** Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:15 pm

I would say it cant fit because ... it cant fit through.
3D game, linear movement, linear obstacles. Unless you can physically get there you cant get there.

It should not worry you because why would you think a horse could charge through a door? IT can jump ruins more easily, it can ignore some in the way tests for barriers, there are lots of things a horse can do but that door is not one of them.

You also can't fit someone through if someone else is stood in the doorway. Im sure you would agree that makes sense? Or would you argue you can slide past them too?

SouthernDunedain · **Posted:** Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:18 pm

I'm with CT on this...

Bilbo · **Posted:** Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:37 pm

SouthernDunedain wrote:

I'm with CT on this...

Snap, that's how its plated in the tournament. I know it may seem illogical but its a game with playing pieces developed as a fun system for gamers, recreating realism is not the aim, fun is.

Damian · **Joined:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:59 pm **Posts:** 246

Quote:

why would you think a horse could charge through a door?

Because it says so on page 50....... and those doors that Steve showed are highly likely to be the ones playtested with. GW don't make any doors wider than 40mm that are low enough to cause you to check the height of your mount.

Quote:

recreating realism is not the aim,

No, recreating the fantastical action scenes from Middle Earth is. 'Tournament Play' is not the aim. Tournament play has always been a bad indicator of the way a game should be played unless that game has been specifically designed with it in mind. Tournaments can change the balance of a game by the simple expedient of setting a time limit for games or not having enough scenery.

There is a reason GW don't call their events 'Tournaments' any more. Their games are not designed for competitive play and while a certain amount of competition is expected there isn't an overall winner at their events. Having fun is promoted over all-out competition.

Tournaments are perfect for encouraging people to turn up and hang out playing SBG, but 'Tournament Play' must never be the dominant factor in determining how a system not designed for tournaments is played.

Bilbo · **Posted:** Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:13 pm

Tournaments are perfect for encouraging people to turn up and hang out playing SBG, but 'Tournament Play' must never be the dominant factor in determining how a system not designed for tournaments is played.[/quote]

Actually its where the game is marshaled but most importantly, played correctly which is my point.

Coenus Scaldingus · **Joined:** Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:14 am **Posts:** 1121

Page 50 says you have to see if the model fits through the door. Can you fit the model through if the doorway is 30mm wide while the base is 40mm? No. Can it then move through? No.

Assumptions on the doorways that may have been used by the playtesters and all kinds of derogatory comments on tournament play do not help this discussion. Simply provide rules that support your stance and/or disprove that of the other. That is what will make people believe you...

Damian · **Joined:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:59 pm **Posts:** 246

Quote:

all kinds of derogatory comments on tournament play

I made no derogatory comments. I stated facts. SBG has always been a scenario based game, meant to re-create the films and books not a competitively optimised system. Tournament Organisers can affect balance with the decisions they take and the resources they have available. I know this because I've done it several times.

Speculation about playtesting is valid, if not proof. A game system that does not allow a Wild Warg to follow a man through a doorway becasue the Warg is considered as fat as the Goblin King is clearly daft.

cereal_theif · **Posted:** Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:04 pm

But Damian, there must be a limit and the obvious limit is the model and hte base it comes on.
You admit the height is a limiting factor with a specific adjustment to the general rule as shown but then when it comes to width there is no specific adjustment and you are inventing one

whafrog · **Posted:** Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:11 pm

I don't see anyone getting any further benefit out of this thread. So it's locked unless someone can convince me otherwise.

Treebeard and Woodland Creature

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