Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan List

Thermo · **Posted:** Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:30 pm

So most of you know that I have spent my first year or so in the hobby trying to find a way for my favourite faction and more importantly, a thematic all mounted Rohan army to work! And despite a lot of early feedback that Rohan and cavalry in particular was significantly uncompetitive, I've built a list this year that wins a lot more than it loses that I'm really happy with (and most importantly of all, it's fun!) That 500pt list is...

W1 - Eomer, Knight of the Pelennor (armoured horse)
3 Sons of Eorl
1 Rohan Royal Guard (horse)
3 Westfold Redshields
2 Rohan Outriders

W2 - Erkenbrand (horse)
2 Sons of Eorl
2 Rohan Royal Guard (horse)
3 Westfold Redshields
2 Rohan Outriders

However, I've been tinkering in my mind that although I love love love how Knight of the Pelennor plays and how he is a beast at 500 points, he is an expensive chunk of an army that only has two heroes and 6 might and I feel it might perform better with more might, since it's so important for heroic moves, combats and strikes in this list. What does everybody think of the following?

W1 - Eorl the Young (Elfhelm for theme!!)
3 x Rohan Royal Guard (horses)
4 Westfold Redshields

W2 - Eowyn (horse, shield)
5 x Sons of Eorl

W3 - Erkenbrand (horse)
2 x Westfold Redshields
4 x Rohan Outriders (horses)

Suddenly, three war bands, an extra will spread across two characters for trying to resist those pesky nature's wrath, 2 extra might with the potential for free might. Plus an extra wound and fate for an enemy to chew through on the board and potentially 2 extra attacks when charging. Will play test of course, see how it feels to play, but thoughts?

PS those wondering why the war bands are made up like so, that's because usually the Sons of Eorl go in and do their thing first. As a result, the hero closest to them usually is the one needing to heroic move etc. And with Eowyn being the might (and) will caddy against those anti-cavalry spells, she's a good one to throw in with them, leaving Eorl his might for heroic combats/striking as he is more of a combat hero. Eorl leads the group likely to be doing the counter charging initially. Erkenbrand is with the more skirmish/final countering group, as with Eowyn around, he no longer needs to be the caddy in this force.

CTBowes · **Joined:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:02 pm **Posts:** 24

Do you worry at all about deployment now that your warbands are a bit more diluted?

Thermo · **Posted:** Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:52 pm

Slightly, although I guess that's one of the wonderful things about cavalry, most of the time you've got the movement to get everything into the positions you want them. Maelstrom scenario hold ground or the new Rescue scenario (as defender) might be tougher and after play testing, I might be more inclined to balance the war bands to something like

W1 - Eorl the Young
2 x Sons of Eorl
1 x RRG mounted
2 x Westfold Redshield
1 x Outrider

W2 - Eowyn (shield, horse)
2 x Sons of Eorl
1 x RRG mounted
2 x Westfold Redshield
1 x Outrider

W3 - Erkenbrand (horse)
1 x Sons of Eorl
1 x RRG mounted
2 x Westfold Redshield
2 x Outrider

JamesR · **Posted:** Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:19 pm

I don't think you need worry about deployment. As you said Cavalry have the movement to overcome that and even your "unbalanced" war bands are far from weak. If it's imperative that you regroup you can move up to 20 inches towards each other in a single turn (assuming your sons don't ditch Eowyn) and that's plenty

Erunion · **Posted:** Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:22 pm

I like the second list better than the first because I favor multiple redundant "units" over one "uber" unit, especially in a game with variable deployment. I love Eorl's Hero of Legend rule, because of how precious Might is for cavalry forces.

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

I'd probably be more inclined to run your new list, the extra Hero/Fight 5/Might/Stand Fast will be invaluable and i don't think you necessarily 'need' KOTP at 500 points.

The only real downside is that any sense of 'thematic' goes completely out the window when you put Eowyn and Erkenbrand in the same list as Eorl.

Mansfield list?!?!? :-)

Thermo · **Posted:** Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:35 pm

I'm with you on the thematic front, a shame to include Eorl but looks like a better option at 500. There is no Elfhelm profile so in this kind of list, Eorl should be named so!!

Haha as for Mansfield, I might just have to run with the original. I've been getting some more foot models painted up as always embarrassed to pull out primed dismounts but got distracted and put together Eorl... However, I think I've sent my Eowyn blister to DMS for painting as I can't find it anywhere!! So might just have to be the original...

Or even

W1 - Eorl the Young
3 Sons of Eorl
2 Rohan Royal Guard (horse, 2 x throwing spears)
3 Westfold Redshields
2 Rohan Outriders

W2 - Erkenbrand (horse)
3 Sons of Eorl
2 Rohan Royal Guard (horse, 1 x throwing spear)
3 Westfold Redshields
2 Rohan Outriders

Basically, as I have no Eowyn, I can include an extra Son of Eorl and an extra Royal Guard into the list, plus arm 3 RRG with throwing spears by swapping Eomer with Eorl...

Thoughts?

Dorthonion · **Posted:** Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:41 pm

Sounds like you are getting more firepower as well as a little more flexibility so what's not to like? Forth Eorlingas!

SuicidalMarsbar · **Joined:** Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:14 am **Posts:** 1712

Theme is relative. You can take Dr.Grant's ferals and say "oh darling how themed" but when you think about it; Saruman was never involved in any battles alongside his Uruk Hai so his presence in any army can be seen as 'un-themed' if analysed enough. Similarly the Vault Warden's are meant to be a unit exclusive to Khazad Dum but they are commonly seen alongside the likes of Dain and Gimli, and no-one bats an eyelid.

Then there is the sorta theme present in your second list, where the army has a clear flavour and theme to it (all mounted Rohan), but isn't necessarily an army that would have been fielded in the lore of Middle Earth, and in my eyes that approach to army building is no less themed than making a historically accurate army.

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

SuicidalMarsbar wrote:

Theme is relative. You can take Dr.Grant's ferals and say "oh darling how themed" but when you think about it; Saruman was never involved in any battles alongside his Uruk Hai so his presence in any army can be seen as 'un-themed' if analysed enough.

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop making sense! :oops:

In my defence I never actually said it was very themed, everyone else just started going "oh it's nice to see a themed, fluffy army doing well for a change" and I was all like "errrrrr, yeah OK"

To the Thermo problem - I reckon KOTP would do you more good than an extra Son of Eorl and Royal Guard. In order I'd want to face:

List 3
List 1
List 2

Use that information how you'd wish :-)

Coenus Scaldingus · **Joined:** Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:14 am **Posts:** 1121

Always liked the Eorl rules, perhaps not quite the epic legendary hero one would expect, but an excellent leader for especially mounted armies and he fits nicely in any army in terms of points.
While you do need some luck to get much out of his special rule, some two extra might already makes quite a difference.

Have seen another guy use a converted model and had his force led by a young Théoden, using the Eorl rules. Plenty of known Rohirrim to choose from, and especially forces without Éowyn could easily be made to fit any timeframe: even Eorl as Eorl and Erkenbrand as his lieutenant! That being said, I'd suspect a list with the Shieldmaiden may perform better: 8 Might + extras, that's a terrific amount of heroic moves, with plenty left to have some heroic combats etc too.

Looking forward to seeing how Eorl will perform, in whatever context!

cereal_theif · **Posted:** Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:53 am

Vs many armies this fore is great but I feel it has a weakness vs dwalin on a pony and the kings champion

Thermo · **Posted:** Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:22 am

Haha I agree! Without KotP, heroes too soft in the face of such reckless hate!

Some key lessons learnt about this force this weekend and possibly previously.

1) It is a very good force for forcing a draw in To The Death. If you're playing To The Death, it's almost worth having a banner to force your opponent to force the issue in that scenario.

2) Does well at Domination. Being able to isolate and pick off any opponent who tries to hold more than one objective is really useful. Opponent loses strength of remaining concentrated as you can use your mobility to pick off segregated forces, concentrating superior forces against them.

3) Not having a 3A 3W 3M 3Will 3F hero in there does make you soft against decent killing heroes, from Dwalin's on pony to King's Champions, even Uruk Captain's that are backed up by spears or pikes. None of the three can stand up and be counted like Knight of the Pelennor can...

4) ... and yet at 500 points, the extra might and extra hero did feel easier in some ways. Just lacked the punch and ability to go toe to toe with other heroes. Armies with 28+ models that retain some strong heroes, such as Cereal_Theif's force, will be tough for it to play.

5) Surprisingly to some, this force has some difficulty at Reconnoitre and it's to do with the math as well as the fact it's worth running your leader off.

Your leader in this force is always going to be your Eomer with his, defence 7, 3 wounds, 3 fate or Eorl with his defence 7, 2 wounds, 2 fate... and never erkenbrand (yes d7, but 2W, 1F??) or Eowyn (d3, 4 or 5 and the horrible 2F 1W stat) and as such, your leader is always the best suited to be doing the fighting whether simply for being able to hold up your enemy high up the table or if you want to kill the enemy general.

The problem comes down to the game ending at 25% and models being off the board not counting as casualties. As such, the 21 model mounted force can only really run off 5 models (one of which needs to be your leader) if your opponent, most of whom should outnumber you, is making a break for the board edge and is likely to get off more models than you. Because if you need the game to end before he starts, 16 of your troops (not including your leader) need to die. As such, the game might end 5-3 to you (he will break you, you will unlikely break him missing your combat hero and a quarter of your already small army)

But trying to die is risky. If your opponent is notices he might lose by killing you before he's got troops off and makes a break with anything else or tries to avoid killing you (shielding etc) you've only got a few troops left to tie anything down.

So, assuming you're going to be broken and assuming you're going to lose your leader, you need to be getting 7 models off the board to beat those 6 VPs from the start. So ideally, a 28 model army is what I'd be aiming for, impossible for a viable all cavalry at 500 points. Perhaps Dr Grant is right and I need to start playing with the big boys at 750!

6) Lords of battle IS the scenario for this army. In the words of tournament winner Jamie Giblin, it takes a lot without giving much away. I'm glad I made it my Get Buff Bat Rep.

7) Meanwhile, scenarios which require you to hold ground, such as Hold Ground and High Ground are much much tougher. You have a chance at Hold Ground if your opponent can't concentrate his forces, as you can almost forget the objective a little and pick off any of his forces coming on from other points. But if they concentrate, whilst you are more likely to reach it first, you are then defending. Not ideal with cavalry! And with High Ground, you've got to almost allow your opponent to take and hold the objective because they can deploy on it and you can't afford to have them charging you turn one. As such, it becomes more messy, not suited to cavalry. As found in the final game vs Gondorian Captain, you have to be killing lots on those charges because if you ain't, even knowing how to play cavalry and having models ready to counter charge, in such a small concentrated space, you're fighting the kind of battle you don't really want to be, relying on priority and heroic moves too much and then needing to kill when you are winning the fights.

All in all, it makes me wonder whether it's worth dropping something at 500 points to include Alfred and giving KotP or Eorl the Young 6 might (or more or less depending on rolling) based on what a few other players were doing! I can see just how useful that extra might would be. Especially for those final turns which so often come down to priority when there is no might on the board. Worth saving one for the final game turn... or including new Balin!

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

Nice analysis buddy, glad to see you're coming round to my way of thinking, 750 is for WINNERS! :-)

Oh and you're absolutely right about Recon, working out the Recon maths for the best way to win is one of the trickiest tactical challenges in SBG, I remember struggling a lot with it when I was using all-mounted Rohan last year. In case you're interested here's an excerpt from my 'Dr Grant's Adventure's in...' article about Battle Brothers last year, it's a brief review of how our all-mounted Rohan list (+Raddy and 2 eagles) got on at Recon, included in a spoiler tag to not fill up the thread.

Click to: Show

Our fourth game saw us drawn against a 52 strong dwarf army led by Murin, Drar, Dain, a King’s Herald and a Shieldbearer. The scenario was Reconnoitre.

Deployment was the first stumbling block, we only got 2/5 of our warbands on the table and none of our opponent’s turned up! A couple of heroic marches later and by the time the dwarves finally arrived we were already halfway across the table. In an attempt to counter our superior movement they had deployed quite thinly across the board and one flank was largely held by Murin, Drar and about 24 Dwarf Rangers, we pointed our entire army at that! This largely left Dain and about 30 dwarves over on one flank and our opponents started marching them towards our table-edge to get a hefty VP lead. We got some bizarre luck early on, 4 throwing spears thrown at Murin/Drar (can’t remember which), rolled 2 sixes to hit followed by 2 sixes to wound, he then rolled a 1 for his Fate roll meaning he had to use all 3 of his Might to stay alive - best throwing spears ever! Losing this much Might early on meant our cavalry could almost always get their way via heroic moves at the battle-line and over a few turns Eomer, the eagles, Erkenbrand and the cavalry were able to chew their way through most of the rangers. Then we hit upon a cunning plan. Our speed/Heroic Marches and the dwarves poor deployment rolls meant that the main battle-line was only about 7 inches from the dwarf table edge. Against all our expectations, the decisive blow against the ranger warbands had meant that we’d killed about 15 dwarves and we might actually have a chance of breaking them and winning the game. We immediately started running all our Riders of Rohan and Royal Guard off the table, getting a comfortable 15-20 VP buffer, then we sent the Eagles, Radagast, Eomer, Erkenbrand, Eowyn and Theoden dwarf hunting! We figured these hero models were worth far more to us on the table and their large movement could run down the slow dwarves heading for safety. Cue a second half of the game more akin to a chase with us desperately trying to break the dwarves before they got to safety. Theoden did a particularly good job of chasing down some stragglers but our heroes of the game again were the eagles who caught the last 5 dwarves about 3 inches from the table edge and killed just enough. As we counted the cost we realised that we had both got 23 models off the table edge but we had broken them so edged it with a 26-23 win. I must say this was our proudest moment of the weekend, we felt like we’d played well and worked hard for a victory that I don’t think many people would have bet on us before the game started. However, I must say a massive thanks to our opponents who were both lovely guys, put up a great fight and played in utterly the right spirit, putting a good game ahead of tournament placement, it was a commendable attitude from two great gamers.

And including Alfrid? REALLY?!?!? Urgh, who would do that?!?!? Next you'll be saying you're gonna take Bombur too, who does that?!?!? :oops:

Thermo · **Posted:** Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:00 am

So although I preferred having an extra hero and extra might at Mansfield, I really missed a 3A, 3W, 3F hero capable of going toe to toe with most heroes, someone capable of taking punishment AND dishing it out.

Of course, I refer to my trusty Knight of the Pelennor. After seeing just how many seasoned vets brought along Alfrid, perhaps he is the answer to the might issue? As such, he's now almost painted on my dining room table!

Thoughts...?

W1 - Knight of the Pelennor
3 Sons of Eorl
2 Westfold Redshields
2 Rohan Royal Guard (horses)
2 Rohan Outriders (horses)

W2 - Erkenbrand (horse)
3 Sons of Eorl
1 Westfold Redshield
1 Rohan Royal Guard (horse)
2 Rohan Outriders (horses)

W3 - Alfrid

To make this list, 2 Westfold Redshields were dropped to include Alfrid and upgrade another Redshield to a Son of Eorl.

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:39 am

What did you end up taking to Mansfield and how did it go? I think you had a vid but whats a quick summary of how your army performed?

Thermo · **Posted:** Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:45 am

I was fairly pleased!

It performs well in lords of battle and domination but struggles in points for each model on objective scenarios, Hold Ground and High Ground. That being said, both of those games which I lost, were close, the latter with some severe bad luck!

Got my maths wrong at recon too and it was a draw but as I play the full range of scenarios more, against good quality players, to a time limit, I'm understanding what needs to be done more and more so all great learning.

Finished on 2W, 2D, 2L... mid-table scores!

Think I wrote a brief review above. But took Eorl and Eowyn instead of KotP. Having seen what I was coming up against, KotP in retrospect would have been better in many ways. I missed having a hero that can stand up to most things, 2W, 2F Eorl is too fragile compared.

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:53 am

Ah I see. I clicked the little 'go to last post' tab and it skipped it.

Ill check it out

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

Thermo wrote:

After seeing just how many seasoned vets brought along Alfrid, perhaps he is the answer to the might issue? As such, he's now almost painted on my dining room table!

Thoughts...?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!

I know that, as one of said 'seasoned vets' bringing Alfrid, this might sound hypocritical but don't do it! There was some vague whiff to theme in all the Aflrid lists at Mansfield (Alfrid with lake town spears twice and Alfrid alongside an entirely DOS themed Hero army) making his inclusion bearable. Sticking him into every other good army as a 20 point top-up is just cheesy (again, more so, I know was plenty cheesy at Mansfield! :oops:

).

Your army has always been about the theme "I love the ROHAN theme, fluff, models" etc. and that's what makes it unique, appealing and interesting. Chucking in Alfrid kills any idea of theme and will make people not like the army. You've had some really great results with your army and now, for the first time that I can remember, there's a regular all-mounted Rohan army that, when it deploys, people think "I need to be careful here, this could beat me". If you put Alfrid into it then you can bet your bottom dollar that every one of your opponents will say they lost because you brought Alfrid, it'll cheapen your victories, it's the Good equivalent of throwing a Shade behind your battleline!

If you're worried about Might, drop the 2 Redshields you dropped for Alfird + one more and put Eowyn back in. 2 more Might, another stand fast, another F5 Hero and, most importantly, fluffy as hell!

If you want KOTP back then bring him but bring him along and do it his way, don't rely on the filthy little sneak to help you win games, win them with the power of your charge - FOR ROOOOOHHHHAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!

SuicidalMarsbar · **Joined:** Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:14 am **Posts:** 1712

I am inclined to agree with Dr.G here - Alfrid is just eugh, and you've beaten plenty of people with pure ROHAN (or Rohan + reasonable allies) so why stop now?

As has been said before at 500pts you will constantly find yourself in between a rock and a hard place in that it is impossible to 'tick' every box without resorting to cheese combos. You kinda just have to choose which weakness you'd rather have and go with it.

Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan List

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