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 Post subject: Eomers sam and frodos profiles
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:18 pm 
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1st off, Eomers profiles....

He has Eomer, Marshall of the Riddermark, and then Knight of the Pelennor for pts costs.

But for the Model they have Eomer and then M otR

So can you use regular Eomer the original for either in a tourament or what?


Furthermore.....sam and frodo have characters with orc armor. Why do there profiles not let them have orc armor and weapons....thatd be cool.


Orc Armor: +5 points
Orc blade: +5 pts

and up the strength and defense 1 each

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 Post subject: Re: Eomers sam and frodos profiles
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:46 pm 
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LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
He has Eomer, Marshall of the Riddermark, and then Knight of the Pelennor for pts costs...But for the Model they have Eomer and then M otR...So can you use regular Eomer the original for either in a tourament or what?


Depends on the tournament. At GW they would probably ask you to use the correct model as there is a slight difference (KOTP has an armoured horse) but most indie tournaments would be fine with you using either. Ultimately it comes down to the toury's stance on proxies and, unfortunately, it's a slippery slope, personally I'd have no problem with the above but consider this:

I want to take Saruman in my Evil army, can I use the Good Saruman the White model ? Yes, as he looks the same and has the same wargear.

I want to use Saruman the White in my Good army, can I use the Saruman model holding the Palantir? Errr, yes? probably? This is like the Eomer example, the wargear is different as it's representing a different profile but most people would probably be alright with it.

I want to use Sharky in my army, can I use any Saruman model? This for me is a no - he's dressed differently, he shouldn't have his staff of power etc. but it's really no different from the Saruman Palantir example above, just taken a few degrees further. This, for me, is too far towards a player wanting the benefits of a character but not being willing to buy the correct models.

However, and here's the important thing, that's an entirely subjective decision based on my personal feelings about the Saruman models and that's the problem with proxies, everyone feels differently. As soon as you let 'some' proxies in (like one Eomer model for another profile) you really have to allow 'all' proxies in (Rohan archers for outriders on foot?) as they're all just going to be the same situation but further down the scale. It's a very tricky issue to govern and so 'no proxies allowed' tournaments, whilst seeming harsher, are a lot easier to govern and less open to grumblings.

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
Furthermore.....sam and frodo have characters with orc armor. Why do there profiles not let them have orc armor and weapons....thatd be cool.


Probably for the same reason that Boromir can't take The Ring, Aragorn can't take a flaming brand and Legolas can't take a Mumak as a mount, they're things that the characters have in the films for a small amount of time that don't actually represent their wider abilities. You can't expect each and every piece of equipment a character touches to be part of their profile.

That said, if we were playing a Wastes of Gorgoroth scenario with Frodo and Sam I'd have no problem upping their defence and strength for that game for the reasons mentioned. We're very lucky that the LOTR had such a cool range of collectors poses, we don't need profiles to represent them all. SBG has always been a range for collectors and lovers of the movies and I'm continually bemused by people who complain about the number of Gandalfs and Bilbos we got for the Hobbit when it's exactly the same release strategy as LOTR laid down for the 10 years previous (although I'm not saying you're doing that).

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 Post subject: Re: Eomers sam and frodos profiles
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:39 pm 
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LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
Furthermore.....sam and frodo have characters with orc armor. Why do there profiles not let them have orc armor and weapons....thatd be cool.


Those are for specific scenarios, where you'd account for it. I can't recall, but there might have been such scenarios in the original RotK game.
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 Post subject: Re: Eomers sam and frodos profiles
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:54 pm 
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whafrog wrote:
LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
Furthermore.....sam and frodo have characters with orc armor. Why do there profiles not let them have orc armor and weapons....thatd be cool.


Those are for specific scenarios, where you'd account for it. I can't recall, but there might have been such scenarios in the original RotK game.


Aye I remember one at least in the RotK rulebook, the defence increase was accounted for I think. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Eomers sam and frodos profiles
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:14 pm 
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Dr Grant wrote:
LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
He has Eomer, Marshall of the Riddermark, and then Knight of the Pelennor for pts costs...But for the Model they have Eomer and then M otR...So can you use regular Eomer the original for either in a tourament or what?


Depends on the tournament. At GW they would probably ask you to use the correct model as there is a slight difference (KOTP has an armoured horse) but most indie tournaments would be fine with you using either. Ultimately it comes down to the toury's stance on proxies and, unfortunately, it's a slippery slope, personally I'd have no problem with the above but consider this:

I want to take Saruman in my Evil army, can I use the Good Saruman the White model ? Yes, as he looks the same and has the same wargear.

I want to use Saruman the White in my Good army, can I use the Saruman model holding the Palantir? Errr, yes? probably? This is like the Eomer example, the wargear is different as it's representing a different profile but most people would probably be alright with it.

I want to use Sharky in my army, can I use any Saruman model? This for me is a no - he's dressed differently, he shouldn't have his staff of power etc. but it's really no different from the Saruman Palantir example above, just taken a few degrees further. This, for me, is too far towards a player wanting the benefits of a character but not being willing to buy the correct models.

However, and here's the important thing, that's an entirely subjective decision based on my personal feelings about the Saruman models and that's the problem with proxies, everyone feels differently. As soon as you let 'some' proxies in (like one Eomer model for another profile) you really have to allow 'all' proxies in (Rohan archers for outriders on foot?) as they're all just going to be the same situation but further down the scale. It's a very tricky issue to govern and so 'no proxies allowed' tournaments, whilst seeming harsher, are a lot easier to govern and less open to grumblings.

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
Furthermore.....sam and frodo have characters with orc armor. Why do there profiles not let them have orc armor and weapons....thatd be cool.


Probably for the same reason that Boromir can't take The Ring, Aragorn can't take a flaming brand and Legolas can't take a Mumak as a mount, they're things that the characters have in the films for a small amount of time that don't actually represent their wider abilities. You can't expect each and every piece of equipment a character touches to be part of their profile.

That said, if we were playing a Wastes of Gorgoroth scenario with Frodo and Sam I'd have no problem upping their defence and strength for that game for the reasons mentioned. We're very lucky that the LOTR had such a cool range of collectors poses, we don't need profiles to represent them all. SBG has always been a range for collectors and lovers of the movies and I'm continually bemused by people who complain about the number of Gandalfs and Bilbos we got for the Hobbit when it's exactly the same release strategy as LOTR laid down for the 10 years previous (although I'm not saying you're doing that ).


Thanks for your fulfilling response!
Im not sure you fully answered though. Not at your own fault though more like GW. No hate intended here or bashing but......

The picture of Eomer, Marshall of the Riddermark has a picture of the oldest pose.
Then, Knight of the Pellenor has the individual mounted model.

BUT the website has the newest model as the Marshall of the R......

Furthermore, their armor is very similar, and if you have the old Eomer and glue on a shield, his wargear fits the profile perfectly.

His oldest model still has armor as heavy as it gets.

I really consider this like Saruman, to be a unique case. I personally believe models like Outriders sons of eorl etc shouldnt be proxied in large amount but the rules would be too complicated.

And the new Eomer looks 10 times as cool but it should legally be proxied easily. He fits the profile.

Anyway, going to the sam and frodo....ok, so they couldnt wear armor.

How about Meriadoc and Peregrin of Rohan and Minis Tirith?

They wear armor for the largest battle of the series in its entirety....no armor either? Seems weak.

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 Post subject: Re: Eomers sam and frodos profiles
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:30 pm 
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LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
The picture of Eomer, Marshall of the Riddermark has a picture of the oldest pose.
Then, Knight of the Pellenor has the individual mounted model….BUT the website has the newest model as the Marshall of the R......Furthermore, their armor is very similar, and if you have the old Eomer and glue on a shield, his wargear fits the profile perfectly….And the new Eomer looks 10 times as cool but it should legally be proxied easily. He fits the profile.


Yes you're right, the website has the models labelled up in contradiction to the sourcebook. The new, awesome model is KOTP the old one is MOTR.

Yes, both Eomers look the same and have the same equipment, as I said before the proxy issue is with the horse, KOTP rides an armoured horse as depicted on the model and MOTR has an un-armoured horse. It's a small issue but still represents a proxy and some people could get confused. For example, if you were using the new KOTP model as MOTR players might think "I'm not going to shoot Aragorn's 1 bow shot at Eomer because I'll need a 6 to wound the horse" when in fact you would need a 5, it's that potential for confusion that annoys proxy-phobes.

Personally I wouldn't mind this in either sense, the KOTP model is awesome and, somewhat importantly, is more expensive and rarer than the old Eomer. This means that if someone's using it they're doing so because they love the model rather than because they're trying to cut corners.

However, as I said before, it is a proxy and once you've opened the door to this (at an event) it's a very slippery slope down to Rohan archers as Outriders etc. That's easy to prevent if you say categorically no proxies but as soon as you allow the Eomer example and my Saruman examples then any line you draw in the sand is entirely arbitrary and up for debate.

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 Post subject: Re: Eomers sam and frodos profiles
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:47 pm 
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Merry And Pippin have different profiles for the battle, e.g they can take armour for scenarios set during or after the Battle of Pelennor.

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 Post subject: Re: Eomers sam and frodos profiles
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:09 pm 
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@LordoftheBrownRing- Merry and Pipen have alternate profiles for their armored versions

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 Post subject: Re: Eomers sam and frodos profiles
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:25 pm 
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Thanks everyone for the responses and info, especially you Dr. Grant.

And yeah I agree about the people using the new model for the love. I think its gorgeous and am actively looking to trade for it or buy it but to no avail thus far.

Profile is cool too.

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