I think almost all of the sculpts are gorgeous, I love 'em, love 'em love 'em and I think I'll be ordering everything except Leggy on Friday. However, am I entirely happy? No.

I have been utterly enthusiastic about the AUJ and DOS releases for the last 2 years and I think people should be allowed to express an opinion without being accused of being a troll or overly negative.

As I said, I love the sculpts but there's no denying that seeing EVERYTHING in fine cast is hugely disappointing. I don't care about the material, I actually quite like it, but the simple fact is the prices do stop you building cool large armies like we've seen for Army of Thror and Azog's Hunters over the last couple of years. I'm lucky enough to be at the point in my life where I can probably afford one of everything just to sate my collector's desire, I'll get 12 elves so i have a full warband but that will be it. There's just no way I can justify to myself (or Mrs Grant) that I should get 36 of those elves for a full 1000 point army.

However, this isn't being overly negative, it's just a fact, I also don't think it's all GW's fault...



This is bang on the money IMO, bear in mind that the Mirkwood Rangers and Palace Guard would have been sculpted for the first film (of two) and so the decision to make a plastic kits of them was already made before the first film came out. Everything designed for the second two films has been finecast. I think it's clear as day that GW looked at the poor sales figures for AUJ and decided that no-one was playing this game/no-one was interested in this game any more so why bother making more expensive plastic kits.


For all the people complaining that GW don't care about the system and they don't put any effort in, there was a HUGE investment in the game for AUJ. The range was massive, there was a gorgeous new rulebook, a great starter set and loads of plastic kits. They really did re-invest in the game. They obviously put the prices up but there was a huge backlash against them in December 2012 where people were complaining that 20 Hunter orcs were £20 etc. and "I'm not buying a single Hobbit mini". Obviously those low sales have led to GW going down the Finecast route and, now looking at 21 armoured elf warriors for £105 I wonder how many of those players are wishing they'd just bought the plastic Hunter Orcs and sent GW a message that they were still interested in the game.

I'm not saying that GW are blameless in all of this but the simple fact is that releasing the last two film ranges exclusively as Finecast is clearly down to people not buying the, largely plastic, range for AUJ.



Yes, Lee Pace filmed all his scenes on a horse and the Elk was digitally added later. However, remember that it featured in the AUJ prologue so GW have know about this change for, bare minimum, two years.

This is the most worrying thing about the releases for me. As of yet, I've seen no models released for either DOS or BOTFA that couldn't have been sculpted back in early 2012 before AUJ came out. My major worry is that all of the cool digital stuff form the last film (dwarf ballistas, trollapults, ram riders, mole/worm things, battle-chariots, Troll hero, new Bolg, Smaug etc.) won't be sculpted/get rules at all which I think would be a real shame.

For people asking about where the rules are, this week's White Dwarf says that "rules for all these releases will be included in a free supplement in issue 46 of White Dwarf" (released on December 13th) this worries me greatly, the implication of all this is that we won't be getting a sourcebook but rather a White Dwarf special with some profiles in. It's only my opinion of course but I would doubt we're getting any scenarios or new rules or anything like that. I now fear that we'll simply be getting a bunch of profiles for basic warriors that were sent to GW a long time ago. GW is a miniatures company, they don't think these models will sell well so they've put less effort into the rules and we end up with some half-baked supplement instead of a full-on sourcebook like we got last year. That's what frustrates me the most.

Ultimately, I couldn't care less about the price of the models (although I understand that this will put some players off), what I care about is the lack of time investment for GW and the impact on the game. You can see it in the new White Dwarf, in the wider shots they have only painted up two of the Mirkwood Kinghts because there are only 2 sculpts available (although at £9 per knight I don't really blame them) and a similar thing with the elven warriors. They now paint up enough to show the models off, not to create cool looking armies and wider battle shots - hardly inspirational! If GW can't be bothered to paint up more of the things then why should we?

Anyway, that's enough from me, again, before I get called a misery guts and told to not be unnecessarily negative, I really love the models and I'll be getting almost all of them. That doesn't mean I can't be disappointed and worried about what it means for the rest tot the releases though.

I truly hope I'm wrong about everything above and that they absolutely blow us all away with the releases, coverage and rules over the next few weeks - fingers crossed!

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You know what I hate about this? It makes sense! haha
But geez it makes you sad for the hobby if it turns that way :/

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I agree with Dr Grant, with the fact that GW did have time to see that Thranduil will have an elk and still didn't put him on there and many more of his points. I for one will be getting all of these minis when they are released as they look all stunning. my theory is that possibly these were finecast and have been released before the movie due to them being seen in AUJ and that indeed they would have made other (possibly) plastic sets for at least the Ram dwarves due to the fact that from other rumours that we might be having a break from the hobbit for a week until the movie comes out.

In my opinion I can see that the profiles will be in a white dwarf for a special edition but I reckon there might be one last book with all profiles given in or due to the the lack of communication between Warner Bros and GW that Gw have not made everything and are trying to stall for time while they produce or even create scenarios and profiles that weren't given to them at the start into a BOTFA source book sometime after the movie release. Just a thought.

Other than that I have supported this hobby since I was 9 and im now 18, from release I have loved this game the most, through doing all three games, and its the most enjoyable. I for one will be getting all the minis from these releases throughout the next month as one last effort before the miniatures stop getting produced. My heart still believes that GW might surprise us.

I agree with everything you said but I'm not sure that there are enough SBGers to make a difference in terms of sales. For some reason the game and the range provoked a negative response (rather unfairly) from the majority of GW customers.

I think that GW have big changes afoot with all this rebranding (As I know you discussed in the Palantir) and they are focusing everything down. I don't think they have a place for the SBG in their vision for the future of the company sadly.

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Is the manufacturing process the same for finecast as it is for plastic sets? My understanding is that the plastic process and the metal process require a totally different size of sculpt, and process... If the same is true of resin and plastic then it would be am expensive and time consuming job to change sculpts done for plastic sets to resin... But I don't know.

I do know that the Perrys were at games workshop until earlier this year and were on set in New Zealand last year... A big expense for Games Workshop which shows they haven't totally neglected the line.

I am hopefully we will get 2-4 'tent pole' plastic sets, dwarf cavalry, new trolls perhaps. And the rest of the line will be finecast. Finecast is pricey but this is partly due to the resin production costs, some other companies resin minis aren't that far off GW and GW carry a massive overhead.

I'm pleased to see new releases and if they are minis I like I will suck it up and take the hit on price... I will be playing with these for years to come. Yes £5 per trooper is horrendous but price is always relative, it is the cost of a coffee and cake, a pint or two, and one pandora charm for the mrs buys me 8 or 10!

I think that GW made a big initial investment in The Hobbit because they hoped to court the Lord of the Rings fanbase. GW's part in making LOTR so successful was the very reasonable cost of entry and the fact that they advertised outside of the normal gaming channels.

By the time of The Hobbit's release, they'd already shot themselves in the foot with regards to price, by effectively doubling the price of LOTR plastics, and that dealt a big blow to LOTR SBG. I don't know a single LOTR gamer that continued collecting GW minis after they did that (anecdote and all that, of course).

To my knowledge, they didn't really do anything to court an outside consumer base, either, and The Hobbit SBG was really only promoted in gaming stores and through GW channels. In that regard, blame for the low sales of AUJ and DOS models can in part be laid at GW's feet.

Of course, a huge part of LOTR's success was the movie trilogy, and that absolutely cannot be understated. Matter of opinion, here, but The Hobbit movies just can't hold a candle to The Lord of the Rings, and that's not GW's fault. Add all of Jackson's 11th-hour antics, and GW probably suffers for things that they really had no hand in. People just aren't nearly as excited about The Hobbit as they were about The Lord of the Rings, and some of that lack of excitement translates into poorer sales for TH minis than for LOTR minis.

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Well, that's my 2 cents.

Uhhh......Im usually first to rain on Games Workshop's parade.........

but to be honest with you dude....the horse still looks gorgeous. Even if they never have him on one.

And MORE IMPORTANTLY to me, as a gamer, and Thranduil user, you know have a Thranduil who can natures wrath up to 16 inches away, not just 12. Its vastly important. And his aura of dismay now has an effective distance of 22 inches. Thats huge man. Maybe you dont use him or fight him, but if you play anything without bodyguard, or high courage, it will make your life a living hell.



Please dont make it too expensive and Im sure I will have a few people here in Chicago who will buy it hahahahaha. Myself included!







Ding ding we have a winner^ This is exactly what happened. Regardless I do want a more mobile Thranduil......but an Elk would have been much better.




Are we not allowed to express opinion unless we like their products? This is consumer economics, and supply and demand.
Its capitalism and business. Everyone has a right to form an opinion, especially in such a passionate hobby.

Im personally happy for you, that you have the money to purchase 3 packs of finecast minis.
I do too. If I wanted, I could afford to buy 1000 point armies of Elves, Gundabads, Laketown, and other finecast units coming out but Im choosing not to because of their choice to make them three packs. I dont care how lovely they are. I dont think its responsible, and especially isnt for some younger guys out there trying to enjoy the Hobbit.....

I find it ironic you yawn at the elven cavalry. I think they are probably the nicest looking models out of this whole release.

As for your last line....if GW put out a good product line, maybe there would not be such negativity. AUJ was an amazing release. I spent a lot of money on it. Since then, its been utter Devlan Mud.




Although I do care about prices, I generally very much agree with all of this. Theres been more than enough time and I already had figured they had given up caring once I saw the first 3 packs of finecast. Investment wise, I mean.

Personally, I really really hope youre wrong about all the cool units in the third film.......but I fear thats what might happen. Either that or they'll half ass a couple pieces in finecast three packs and ruin it.

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Yes we are all allowed to express our opinion. I expressed mine, there was nothing wrong with me doing that. I didn't quote anyone to call them out about it and make it personal. So everyone calm down about words/meaning/tone aof what I said. So please accept my apologies, I was not trying to say people cannot be upset with prices, models, finecast, whatever... I agree with almost everything people say along those lines, but it is sad and negative just the same. The other negative aspect is the reverse speculation, that because we don't see it, it must not be made and thus GW doesn't care... This is speculation and very negative speculation and is hard to read, true or not. Like the no plastics, no rule book, no smaug, etc etc. It is rough being a fan when everyone is feeling daunted.

Troll Horde... I meant that in since FOTR that I have been buying models and watching TLA, OR, GW forums and others, generally every single release is met with mostly harsh negative replies. This is what I have noticed in all this time. So, yeah, it gets tired after a while so I expressed that. I don't mind people hating sculpts (Dol Amroth was panned hard in it's day and the monkey twin models). But more and more every release becomes a bash against Fine Cast and Prices. And makes me upset... not at you all for your opinions, but because so many people are being hurt or unable to enjoy the hobby because GW decided to make finecast. That sucks. I want people to be able to buy mini's and enjoy them. But if all the releases were plastic... well then we would have the 10 sculpts price complaint too. so there is no win to this negative vibe. I am not blaming anyone, not even GW. it is a free market, GW can price it however they want and can make crappy sculpts or great ones, it is up to them. And people can buy or not buy, that is up to them. Unfortunately we have a lot of people who want to buy but can't do to prices, and a bunch of people who can afford to buy plenty who won't because of Fine Cast (which I have 0 problems to date with). Both of these lend to the free market and LOTR/Hobbit not being produced or supported and thus the end comes sooner than later. Should I be happy? well, after three years of this, I actually will be happy to see an end to the negative forums about releases. I am not calling out anyone as I said, I totally agree that people should not buy what they don't want or can't afford. It still makes me sad to read about.
There, is that more clear? can I stop being a target for not being super happy that people don't want to buy models or can't buy models? If not I will gladly quote every single person who I disagree with and call them out on their opinion if that is more acceptable.

Anyway.. Dol Guldor High Elves foot troops would sell 10 times more plastic sets than an third mirkwood troop type and I hope that is where they put there limited resources. Also dwarf Cav should be plastic. The fine casts have all been fantastic for the hobbit, they may cost more, but from a model quality perspective they are not bad. not as strong as metal of course, but we already know that ship is sailed and bringing it up every release is pointless. This pre-release is just that, a shelf warmer until the real good stuff hits.

And I do yawn at the elf releases. IMO elves are overdone (in fantasy genre not just GW SBG).
I cannot afford a single penny worth of models for several months. I have held onto a GW gift card for a year just to get Bolg so I am waiting still. after that, I will make my list, price it out and start saving up and add my Tax refund to that. So, I am like many and can't afford it, but I am still not going to blame GW for pricing models how they see fit.

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I understand your stance on them but I can almost guarantee without any statistical backup they'd make more money if they released plastic sets of ten instead of fine cast. Which, if they make more money that's good for us cause then they can put out more nice products.

As for elves Idk. I guess considering I only follow the Hobbit and Bolt Action I don't see a ton of elf stuff in my eyes. But I see what you're saying.

Thing is in the old supplements the could make Fiefdoms Gondor Rohan Minis tirith Numenor there's a lot of men.

Now the Dwarves and Elves are the main line of the story. Like I said in my original post I won't be getting any elves but they look nice. I'll probably just proxy Galadhrim among friends.

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You would hope so, but if, following their data from the sales of the plastic kits for AUJ, they can determine that the (huge, and upfront) cost of manufacturing plastic kits is unlikely to return a profit by the time their license expires, it might well be the better business decision to finecast everything than risk making a loss on a kit that might not sell well enough to justify it's expense. It's not like with 40k where they can produce a squad of plastic minis for whatever faction and let it sit around for a decade or more before they replace it - all but guaranteeing it becomes profitable. If GW has decided that it's better for their brand to can SBG when the licenses expire, then that puts a finite shelf life on the product - not a good thing if it has large upfront costs.

(It's for similar reasons I'd be dissapointed to see NO plastic of any kind, too. We know the Laketown sets were fully tooled, with at least some produced, so maybe some other kits got as far as steel mould production before the decision was made to cease plastic development. If we truly end up with no plastic, then that's actually really weird - 90% of the costs are in the development and tooling, you'd think they'd want to recoup as much as possible before the end.)

I share your view on the Elves, though. "Elves are overdone?" Nonsense, Middle Earth without the woodland realm would be a horribly incomplete place. Just because other fantasy settings can't do something other than iterate on Tolkien isn't his fault.

I'm not seeing how that doesn't make it GW's fault? Part of being a successful business is to conduct market research, and collect and respond to customer feedback to ensure your product or service meets your customer's needs. Given that GW seem to be oblivious to all feedback beyond a simplistic analysis of their sales figures, we customers can hardly be held at fault for not buying products which fail to meet our needs when our feedback was readily available.

Would you keep buying undercooked steaks at a restaurant to show that in principle you like steaks in the hope that eventually they might cook one to your liking? If I was the restaurant I would assume that since you're still buying you must like the way I cook my steaks therefore I don't need to change anything. Oh - and I'll raise the price again because you don't seem to have a problem paying what I'm charging.

=P

PJ did not kill my enthusiasm for the Hobbit not even GW can do that.

I deleted the rest of my comment. No Fine Cast purchases for me.

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Fingers are staying crossed, after all GW has a weekly release schedule now so they might be saving the best to last?

Wishful thinking but we better get a certain dragon, some plastic orcs, new necromancer, nazgul and some BAMF siege trolls.

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Of course we can all write very lengthy posts detailing our thoughts on the many reasons why GW have done whatever it is that they have chosen to do.

The truth is, that we don't yet know what they have decided. We have seen one week of releases so far. There will definitely be more weeks, but we don't yet know how many, nor what they will contain. On the one hand, this doesn't look great, as neither the Elven infantry (very numerous in the movie, certain to play a large role) nor the cavalry are in plastic. On the other hand, GW have for some reason decided to make a third Thranduil, a second (Hobbit) Legolas and Tauriel (the former two mounted as well) and then another 5 packs of Mirkwood minis. That's 8 blisters (clampacks, whatever), all for one of the Five armies, in just a week. While not what I (nor indeed many others) was hoping for, that still is a pretty good start. They don't look too bad either.

Furthermore, whatever we are going to see released over the next 12 months, it will by now all have been decided. Whoever is to blame for what may or may not turn out to be a disappointing release, it doesn't really matter anymore. With the Perrys having left, licenses running out and a reasonably low interest from both customers and the manufacturer, this is likely to be the last we're going to see from GW. The community can keep the game going for many a year afterwards, and general interest in The Hobbit (the first edition of which was printed nearly 80 years ago now) and The Lord of the Rings is likely to persist as well. But whatever it is that will happen afterwards, we haven't seen the last releases yet - indeed, we haven't even seen the last movie yet!

So why waste time on these many words, blaming other disappointed hobbyists, when it is only the community that will keep this game alive in the end, and it is too early to tell to what extent we should be disappointed anyway? Let us just spend our time painting models (be they newly bought or from an extensive backlog), build and convert them (without adhesing finger to eyelid all too often), and most of all have fun playing some games.



(Besides, from what I read about the last edition of 40k and the rumours for the new WHFB releases, less influence by GW may well be a good thing! By the Valar are they introducing some idiotic rules these days...)
Not to mention the fact that in a few weeks time, we'll see open a can of whoop-ass on [+ the Nazgûl.. why don't we have pictures of those?], aided by a hopefully angry and armoured . How can anybody still be negative in such a time?!

Argument invalid - Coenus Scaldingus Wins.

I do complain a bit about the 50+ versions of Gandalf, and the 50+ versions of Legolas or other characters sometimes when we could have new, exiting miniatures of different characters or troops.

But I'm really looking forward to seeing (if we get them) new miniatures of necromancer, Wraiths & White council.

The Board is set, the pieces are moving.

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I think that people are forgetting that for Lord of the Rings GW released many regular troops in metal blisters of 3, eg. Mordor Ors, Morranan Orcs, Uruk-hai, Galadhrim, Dwarfs, Easterlings, etc. Same goes for cavelry, eg. Haradrim Raiders, Easterling Kataphracts ect. And then a year or so later they released the plastic boxes. So maybe GW is just doing the same thing but with their new material (finecast) and their more expensive prices (25 instead of 15). But I still think they will make almost all of them into plastic like they did before for any core units of an army. Some stayed metal and cost more to make a warband/unit out of and that might be true for some elite units here as well, but I don't think it is reasonable to say they will never make these minis in plastic now when we have not seen the full release schedule.

Thats just my two cents.

I would think that some of the new models were sculpted specifically for the last movie (or the second movie back when it was two). Neither of the first two movies contain Wood Elf cavalry, nor do we see armoured elves in combat. We also don't really see Thranduil in combat, certainly not mounted for combat.

Probably GW was giving film still which has the elf king on a horse during the Battle of the Five Armies - the think it 'might' be converted into an elk later because he was riding one briefly in the first movie, but they honestly don't know - so they decide to keep it as a horse.

Also we've got Tauriel without her bow - possibly because a certain elven king snaps it as seen in the trailer...?

I'm just happy to see any new models! And, if what you say about a Dec. 13 White Dwarf with content, it means they is a least a little more support to come.

I'm going to take a be glad of what there is, and be excited about anything new that comes, because I can't see what is gained by any other course of action.

Problem with that is that they released some things many years later, and some not at all (high elf spearmen). Pricewise they are I think something in the region of 45% of the cost of finecast (not allowing for inflation) and often you could buy them in bulk boxes of 5 cavalry, or 9 metal plus hero, which mitigated the cost somewhat. The number of plastics per box, as well as the price also meant you didn't mind splashing out on some metal infantry, even more so when you could get 12 troops for €6.50 plus a magazine, all basic troop types covered. Now it's €35 for 12. LOTR was given ample weight on the website, in white dwarf, in-store and beyond (DeAgostini magazines). LOTR was also far more popular as a film than the Hobbit. All signs point to them dropping off support for it at their earliest convenience. I think there will be plastics made for this film however, but not of any existing release.

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if its plastic I got a feeling might be the dwarvne goat riders and gundabad orcs (yea you saw pikes not spears) so its of all interest to try to remake that anyway (but prices of those boxes will go up up, even more than current palace guard and rivendell knights (as their close relatives infantry/cav type)

Since this has turned into a status of the hobby commentary, here are my two cents.

Started playing with (not collecting or gaming) with the LOTR figures when the first movie came out and bought the models for my son (who was thirteen and moving on from Star Wars to Lord of the Rings) because I remembered how much fun I had as a kid playing with my Airfix men. Scenery was building bridges and forts out of dominoes. He preferred the plastic over the metal so bought very few metal figures.

Many years later the stash of models had grown due mainly to half price sales at stores that had carried the boxes as a tie in to the movie but weren't necessarily game stores.

I have watched the hobby grow from the early days to now but my philosophy on buying hasn't changed. If I didn't want the model, I didn't buy, if I did I waited until I could afford it. It didn't matter if it was plastic, metal or finecast. It didn't matter if it was on sale, if I didn't see myself (or my son) using it, I didn't buy it.

My enjoyment and the beauty of LOTR SBG and the Hobbit is that you use it as the basis to build your own scenarios. If I don't have enough models for a huge battle, I have smaller ones where you have two patrols meet.

What I have learned from this forum is that if the model isn't exactly what you want, convert it, paint it the way you want or don't bother with it.

With the new models I would prefer if Tauriel had a bow, but that just might mean I take her head and switch it with a model with a bow or change her arms so she has one. OR I don't bother buying it.

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