I find it bizarre anyone is complaining that the King of the wood elves is F7. The King of the High elves, Gil galad, had the highest f value of any good 'warrior' hero so of course this king will be close. Pretty sure Thranduil was around in a place called Doriath in the books, which pretty much justifies his temper, his distrust of dwarves and his martial prowess.

As for Legolas? I would've had him at 6, I think three attacks is long overdue though. The fact he's 7 also must be purely on the way he has fought in the movie(s), and games workshop is trying to represent this.

Saruman does seem massively powerful, but then again, he's the lord of the Istari *shrug*.

I like the new profiles. I love Smaug, Thorin's company and the new white councel. There is a lot of potential in these new rules. And if you play 500pt games, it will be always a difficult tradeoff. An extra full warband of warriors or some awesome hero like Dwalin or Legolas? The new profiles give a nice new dimension to the game.

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Backlog:
21/01/2015: still 319 Models to paint or 27,01%
30/12/2016: Somehow the backlog has risen up to 900+ models :/

Long before the Hobbit came out, all models that came out rarely had any special rules. Overtime because of this, many models started to feel the same and some being underused since thier was not too many reasons to play the model such as Feral Uruk-Hai, Dunlendings, Dunedain, etc.....As the five sourcebooks were created, you saw more special rules come out in things like the Watcher, Great Beast, etc. Now ever since the Hobbit has been written into rules, most every model has alot of unique play value in the race they are in. There is a reason to have almost any model in the range without any of them being overpowered. This is a step in the right direction since it makes gameplay more interesting and makes me keep buying models.

Legion what makes the game interesting for you kills it for me.

The example- "many models started to feel the same and some being underused since there was not too many reasons to play the model such as Feral Uruk-Hai"

A tournament gamer might not choose a model because it is not cost effective in a points match. So you don't have a need for a dwarf in a barrel or a hobbit blacksmith. The only reason for a new model would be if it can make a contribution to your battle line. If the model does not meet the requirement it is not interesting. Official GW style play magnifies this. Why can't you substitute a feral Uruk-Hai for a Hobbit hunter orc. Why because GW wants to sell you the new more expensive model. No new rules without new models. How can' they charge $25 for one plastic figure with out a special rule to make you want it?

The game was designed for 50 figures maximum at 500 pts. So exactly how does a 700 pt model fit in? You can power game a force to kill it How many $25 figures will it take Don't know or care

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

There was a point when the balrog was 500pts, all goblins passed their courage test when he was on the board, he had a potential 6 attacks D10 and always used the same amount of dice to resist spells as he had wounds left.
Also a long time ago Sauron had 3will points/turn

Gandalf could ride Gwahir in earlier editions and counted as a mounstrous mount.

Lurtz had D6
And let us not forget Legions of middle earth era, where you could simply use one hero of that faction and simply fill the rest of the points with warriors.

because of the new editions of the rules over time all factions have had increased potential for damage, bow limits, cavalry charges, Fight value meaning less than before, nerfing of shooting and spells, monsters being able to pull their weight, cave dweller nerfing
If anything the rules have become more balanced and allow greater tactical diversity, even if they are more hero-centric

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http://grungehog.blogspot.co.uk/

More balanced prior to the Hobbit. I cannot speak to anything post AUJ because I haven't bought any post AUJ models, but the hero-centric nature of the most current releases isn't what I'm looking for. My gaming group is considering dropping Warbands and Warband deployment. Which would (I think) help balance these new heroes by allowing more swarms against them

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Commission Painting @FB http://www.facebook.com/squyrepainting
Commission Customers include:
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MiniWargaming

I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to be a walking dictionary with all these special rules and to have my girlfriend listen to; "I cast the ring of Alkabazaryshad on you that reduces your stat line by 1 and can't be countered by the staff of Wazzywazoom special rule." (Exaggeration, but you get the point I'm making)

I like rules that follow the K.I.S.S. logic. I don't need Dungeons & Dragons.

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My Lotr backlog: 305/952[][][][][][][][][][]32% completed
Painting Lineup: Mumakil x2, Rohan Heroes x8, Haradrim, SKoDA

Yet they haven't adjusted the High Elven point cost even after nerfing their strengths. Bows and high fight value. Don't get me wrong I like a challenge. Felling armies larger than mine was the challenge, it's just obscene some of the magic and monsters I've faced recently with an army that's barely been touched by anything positive since the white council box of old.

I don't count the Rivendell Knights as I haven't used them yet, but seeing as they are troops I imagine the same things effect them.

I thought it was made very clear that Hobbit SBG profiles are not supposed to mix with LOTR profiles. So comparing Hobbit Legolas with LOTR Aragorn is not accurate. If you are playing Aragorn then you should be using LOTR Legolas profile.

I like the free supplement. My only complaint is that it lacks a ton of stuff from the films that should have been released.

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http://www.sithious.webs.com

Why would you think this? The AUJ rulebook says it's the same game, only this is the most updated version of the rules

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Commission Customers include:
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This is not true at all. The Hobbit is an update to LOTR. It is just called the Hobbit for Marketing purposes. The old style of LOTR is not supported by GW. Its the same as when 40k or fantasy get new editions. It's not a new game every time, just an update.

...not sure if you have come to realization of this, but you're playing Lord of the Rings!!....just by placing down models, your already a person saying "I'm playing Alkabazaryshad equipped with Wazzywazzom...." regardless of any special rules. It's a world with a several made up languages so you best get used to sounding silly to someone on the outside.

And regarding KISS...This is already a really simple game compared to the other two systems GW supports. Most models have one or two special rules at max, and many of those rules do really simple things. And if you made all the models in the LOTR range just simple stats, you would have a very boring game.

^I enjoyed the game back when it was more simple and I enjoy it now. It changes the style of play, from more of a true strategy game to a RPG

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Commission Painting @FB http://www.facebook.com/squyrepainting
Commission Customers include:
GBHL Youtube Channel
MiniWargaming

"And if you made all the models in the LOTR range just simple stats, you would have a very boring game."
Thank you Legion. Now you have decided what is interesting and boring for me I don't have to think about it any more.

The rules replace the previous addition rules when it is the advantage or they are a supplement when a rule from a previous edition is the advantage. Power gamer and rules lawyer heaven just like 40K.

I think the tread was originally about how to Kill a dragon. Will anyone ever get the chance in a tournament?

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Smaug vs Smaug anyone?

Ok fine...I agree that what is boring is objective. So I agree that it is unfair for me to declare it more boring for everyone. I admit this and apologize for my description of the game in that way.

What I meant to convey is the new rules do not seem to overpower the game or turn it into 40k shenanigans. 40K is a truely broken game, but I have not seen LOTR cross this line except in Legions of Middle Earth when the Legolas leading 60 wood elves was broken, or when the Hobbit Spamming was considered broken before the Shadow Lord came out. And these are all in the "Simpler days". Therefore, I personally dont see a problem moving the game away from those days into a more fast paced game as long as it is not game breaking (which so far, it doesnt seem to be the case.)

I agree with Legion. Most people seem to have an idea in their head of a 'Golden Age' of the rules system, although when this was supposed to be I have no idea. It certainly wasn't before the Big Blue rule book as the game was still under going massive changes. While the Big Blue rulebook fixed a lot of things it still lead to a lot of problems. For me personally the war and system and the Hobbit rules have fixed the vast majority of these and created a far more streamlined game

As far special rules: these have been in existence since day one. The only difference is that now more models get them. However this isn't exactly a bad thing; it makes certain models more unique and interesting to play with. However the trend towards special rules started a long time before the Hobbit system so you can't really be too surprised by it.

I remember when 40k was not broken

Legion no need to apologize. I am glad you see the point.The game is not broken, the way GW promotes it is. Rules lawyers and powergamers can ruin anything.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Some of the good profiles seem over the top, but outside of those, it seems fine. Legolas is only D5 with no elven cloak, so he is vulnerable to shooting or losing combat. Orcrist helps him against heroes, but not standard troops, and at some point, he will roll low against a bunch of Golbins.

That would just come down to who gets the first fire breath off on the other player's Smaug. Blow all the might to make it hit and wound if you have to.
Smaug doesn't have any rule stating that she is immune to instant kill effects, and there is no clause in the fire breath rule for models with 10+ wounds like there is for war machines.

Agreed. The power creep on the new heroes is real and a little frustrating. Power creeping in game expansion is often a marketing tool, and it pretty rampant through out the gaming industry so some of it can be explained there but I am more inclined to put the blame on PJ and the hobbit movies then GW. The profiles are right on with the movies but as I am not a fan of the movies I can't get that excited about them. I think its fun for the game to have more options and I am really really happy they made another supplement and that it is readily available. The support they've already shown for the last movie is awesome and the more models and support for the range the better.
From a thematic side though, I find it hard to swallow that the Hobbit characters in general, would be so powerful as I don't feel the power level of many of the Hobbit hero profiles doesn't fall in line with characters from LOTR. Thorin's company, Bard, Tauriel, Orc heroes and now Legolas and Thranduil, I just don't feel really don't fit into the world of the LOTR SBG profiles. I was just thinking to myself that the orcs and goblins in the battle of five armies shouldn't be as strong as and definitely shouldn't be stronger then the Uruk hai. Bolg and Azog being fight 7 is ridiculous since they're basically just moria orcs. The Gundabads are definitely described as being huge as is Bolg, but I may be mis remembering, I felt like it was just his body guard who were really exceptional as far as orcs were considered and the rest of the orcs at BOFA are really just goblins aren't they? Either misty mountains or Moria but still goblins. Bard, I feel shouldn't get 3 attacks. He seems like he should be more comparable to Faramir but with extra shooting rules. The new Dwalin is pretty absurd too. I will find it hard to stomach Aragorn losing a 1 on 1 to Bolg, Azog, maybe even Dwalin? Thranduil almost gets a by for me as he is an elf king and theres got to be something to be said for that, but he is ludicrously powerful now lol.

I think all of this can be brought back to the movies though. Everything in the Hobbit movies has been an attempt to be bigger and better then, I am not sure what exactly, the next big hollywood blockbuster I suppose but unfortunately I think that has really cheapen them, for me at least. I think in PJ's or Del Toro or whoever wrote/approved the script and screen play for the Hobbit, has really lost sight of original story in the grandeur of it all, which has a life long Tolkien fan, really bums me out. With all of that said, it isn't terribly surprising that it has trickled down to SBG. I know a lot of people have really enjoyed the movies and I will be there at mid night with everyone else but I can say with some degree of certainty, the Hobbit trilogy will likely not make it into my habitual LOTR marathons on sick days, holidays and the occasional everyday.

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Cheers,

P