Flying and Breath Fire will probably be the most popular load-out for the Dragon, and it does make for a very attractive killing machine. Def 7 is good enough for S2 bows, even S3 bows, but with Flying you should be able to position the Dragon behind cover to avoid any range fire. And with Breath Fire, you'll either A) take out huge swaths of the enemy army with S10 insta-kill blasts or B) cause the enemy army to scatter, leaving them in bad position to withstand the charge of the rest of your army.

Least useful will probably be Wyrmtongue and Breath Fire, since (though you get a free dice for Wyrmtongue) both use to precious Will points, though I do see Wyrmtonge as being a good upgrade; not in the sense that the dragon's magic will support your army as a Ringwraith's would, but assist it in its own persona combat. Sap Will + Immobilize + Draconic Charge = dead hero

Surely a good way of countering the ill effects of survival instinct would be with wyrmtongue - with the 1 free point of will per turn, you can ensure that your dragon passes his courage tests. Is this a feasible tactic or does the dragon get one free spell per turn (I haven't got the rules with me at the moment)

Have any of you got any experience of using your dragons in combat yet? Are there any specific tactics that you used?

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Brush licking is for better painters.

A Dragon can use his free willpoint only for spells.

I still think that this "Survival Instincts" are a good rule.
It comes whit what did you say 9 in def...
and F? S? and how many dices is alowed to be rolled by a Dragon?
2-3?
AND thats why i think its a good rule...
or else the Dragon woud be like a fight "Goblin VS 4 Elven Captains and the Dragon Represents the 4 EC!
MY POINT is that if we our GW woud take away the "Survival Instincts" rule the dragon woud be like Sauron WHIT the ring " Imortal" And if it can fly that woud make the range about 24-28 cm "a alternative for Inches" and Thats a lot... NO if i'm wrong then i'm telling you now I DON'T HAVE THE RULES FOR DRAGONS

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Famous words from Sauron
1.(breath sounds)
2.(breath sounds)
3.(Breath sounds)
the conclution is
He's retarded:D:D

Thanks for all of the replies to the Dragon discussion!

I have the rules in front of me, so I can clarify some of the rules. The Dragon has only 3 Will and does not get a free point of Will per turn. Will can be used to modify Courage Tests as stated in the ORB.

Therefore, Will is very important for the Dragon since Firebreathing, Wyrmtongue, Courage Tests and Resisting Spells all can use up precious Will. Dragons do have Magic Resistance to help resist spells.

I do think Survival Instinct makes the Dragon very interesting to use since you have to really balance these demands on Will depending on the upgrades taken and your opponent.

put simply the thing is a killing machine with the equivalent of being able to fire 3 mega accuarate catapult shells, being as hard to hurt as mordor trolls and with the damage of gulhavar in combat plus knocking things to the ground.

the really best combos are either :
fire breath and fly so you can get around the battlefield though this option does leave your dragon slightly vulnerable to bowfire but then does allow the best manouverability allowing you to pick fights easily and heroic combats with this thing are deadly. With the fire breath it means you have a great ranged shot that will easily get back the points for the upgrade and make your opponent spread their army or be destroyed.

tough hide and fly is also a good option giving a very tough combat specialist that few can stand upto or hurt, like a troll it is best against heroes to get it's points back as imo it is a lot at 350

fire breath and tough hide is also great that i known around my area as the tank. It maybe slow moving but it won't get hurt and can dish out the catapult like volleys of fire breath so it is a great choice.

wyrmtongue can be added in but really there isn't that much point due to limiting effectiveness of fire breath or saving the courage to stop it running. The only real usefulness of this upgrade is to take out mega heroes with fight value 7+ like gil-galad, treebeard or glorfindel or if you are fighting an evil army it can be useful against the large mosters.

Taking the dragon is a bit of a risk as it can run but with 3 fate and if you don't take fire breath 3 will to help you pass the courage tests it can take at least 5 or 6 wounds.

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generalship is easy just point your troops to the war

If the dragons weaknes is courage, why don't you then lower its courage by buying someone who can use the magical power "drain courage" and then drain its courage until it has to roll stupidly high to pass the test when you wound it?

You could also buy a gondorian trebuchet and then hit and wound it once and then it is dead?

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You may have triumph on the battlefield for one day, but against the power that rises from the east, there is no victory.

The Dragon does gets a free "Will" point if it takes Wyrmtongue, but that free point can only be used to cast magic.

Oops!!! My mistake!

Thanks, Lupino and Ancalagon! I'm really glad you both pointed this out. In the Khazad-Dum supplement it says under Wyrmtongue that the Dragon can use one dice to cast a spell without reducing its Will store. I never even noticed this for some reason. No wonder I kept thinking that Wyrmtongue didn't seem that great. But this does make it another worthy ability for a Dragon and makes choosing only 2 abilities even tougher!

Easterling King - is there a Good model with Drain Courage?
I doubt if a Trebuchet would work against the dragon; first you have to hit it and then roll a 6 to get the direct hit and then score 3+/4+ to wound and if you do it has Fate and Might to resist.

Yeah, I may have had the rules in front of me, but I obviously forgot to read them! I must have been using them as a pillow instead...I must remember to get more sleep instead of staying up to paint miniatures....

So a Dragon with Wyrmtongue can attempt to cast a spell once per turn throughout the game. It can save its Will for Courage Tests or use its Will to roll extra dice for spell casting if its really important to cast the spell successfully. That makes the Dragon an even bigger threat to heroes since it can Sap a Wizard's Will or it can Transfix/Compel a combat hero before charging it. And if it doesn't cast a spell successfully the first time, it can keep on trying throughout the game. Deadly.

I still really like the sheer destructive potential of Firebreathing even if the Dragon can only do it a few times since it uses up its precious Will. Flying and Tough Hide also seem really useful. This is going to be a tough choice for me. I must say that I think GW did make the Dragon very interesting. Different combinations of these abilities can create Dragons with different fighting styles.

No!

But it was just a thord.
I do think that it is possible that you can have a moria army fighting a mordor army.

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You may have triumph on the battlefield for one day, but against the power that rises from the east, there is no victory.

I wanted to take this time to thank everyone who has contributed to the tactical discussion on Khazad-Dum. I've really enjoyed hosting it. I know I've learned a lot--especially about Dragons, Wyrmtongue and reading rule books! Thanks again Ancalagon and Lupino!

I'm not going to attempt to do a summary since there has been too much good info to condense. Hopefully, Curunir will be able to transition the discussion to the next topic in the next couple of days. Feel free to make any final comments about Khazad-Dum until then.

If you have any interest in hosting a topic that interests you, I highly recommend doing so. Just sign up in the HOST/TOPIC thread: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/viewto ... 217#103217

Does the dragon get an extra dice when it charges?

Is Draconic charge the same as Shelob's "Pounce" rule?

It doesn't seem clear to me.....how do others read the Draconic charge rule?

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Wellington NZ

The charge rule only allows the knock down, no extra dice are used - it doesnt really make too much sense but thats GW

I cant remember shelobs pounce rule but he is quite unique in regard to knocking down the enemy - not really much of an advantage.

Still i havent said anything about the Dragon.....and the way this has been held - great job Awcho!

Ok everyone seems to upgrade their dragon with two of the rules but are they really worth it?

Fly - seems like a benefit but for 50 points! You dont roll any extra dice for draconic charge anyway so i dont see the big deal with this rule. A dragon should be in the thick of combat right?

So...perhaps an upgrade of tough hide is more suitable preventing lucky bowfire and helping in combat. Though it has a tough enough defence anyway.

The only upgrade i tend to use is Breathe Fire as explained above - casting this 3 times IS worth the points and much better than fly or wyrmtongue. The enemy will be drawn towards combat or will retreat further. In the meantime you are pumelling them with strength 10 attacks - and it effects models immediately around the target model. Hitting on a 2, you must be a really unlucky person to roll a 1 lol, but might could be used - similar to saurons' One Ring' rule - though that is to do with fate

Depending on the type of army you are up against upgrade with either tough hide or breathe fire. If you are obsessed with fly lol, then you could purchase that on top of the two previous upgrades.

If you enemy is archer-heavy then take tough hide otherwise take breathe fire - its the best of the upgrades

hope that it is useful

Is the dragon good at being in an army theat sieges and takes a Fortress?
I will say that it should fly over the wall where there isn't many warriors who guard a spot on the wal. Then it could just kill them?

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You may have triumph on the battlefield for one day, but against the power that rises from the east, there is no victory.

The Fly and Tough Hide combo would be great against those pesky Grey Company armies. Get in fast with enough Def to ignore all but the most lucky of rolls, then just start mauling the enemies weak troops. Once engaged he can't shoot you anyway. If you weren't up against a highly mobile or highly shooty army then Fly is a lot less important.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

So how to be a Dragon Slayer? Here are a few thoughts.

Use a Wizard. Transfix or Compel could be very effective against a Dragon. Even with the Dragon's Magic Resistance, the Dragon will probably have to use up its precious Will store eventually. If it's successfully transfixed or compelled, it can be swarmed by several of your troops since it has such a large base. If its Will is gone it will be more likely to flee if it is actually wounded.

How can the Dragon counter a Wizard? The Dragon can toast the Wizard with firebreath before the Wizard forces the Dragon to use up its Will. Or the Dragon can use Wyrmtongue to Sap the Wizard's Will and then Transfix or Compel the Wizard. Furthermore, the Dragon can use Fly to stay out of the Wizard's range and then fly into range to breath fire or cast a spell or charge the Wizard.

Ok, another idea. Use Archers--lots of Archers. Elves with Bows could be effective since they are accurate and their S3 bows wound Def 7 on a 6. If they are able to shoot enough times, odds are that they will be able to cause some wounds. I think Def 9 would decrease the probability by 50%. Legolas and other Elven heroes with Bows can be especially dangerous since they can modify the wounding roll with Might.

Dwarven S3 bows have the same probability to wound but the shorter range could be a problem if the Dragon can fly. The Grey Company could also be effective because they can have so many accurate archers. However, their S2 bows will have a significantly harder time wounding D7 or D9. At least the Grey Company usually has a lot of bow-armed heroes with Might to help with wounding.

What can a Dragon do against Archers? There are too many variables like terrain, scenario objectives, supporting units, etc. to cover everything. However, as Beowulf described, getting the Dragon into combat quickly will keep it from being targeted by archers. Flying would be useful to attack quickly or fly out of range or fly into cover if necessary. Tough Hide would obviously decrease the odds of being wounded. Firebreathing would only be useful if the archers are clustered together. If the Dragon can't fly, compelling an enemy forward with Wyrmtongue could get the Dragon into combat quicker.

Just some food for thought...
OK, back to work

If anyone that plays against me pulled out the dragon with tough hide and fire breath, I'd pull out my 2x Avenger bolt throwers, Citadel guard archers and the normal rangers along with my normal infantry.

I would set the 'bolters on the edges of the archer line, flanked on both sides by the Gondorian Infantry. (maybe give one 'bolter an engineer captain.) and fire (not so) randomly into the proverbial sunset. The bolters, crew, CG archers and rangers are still less points than the dragon, but would probably take it down in a 1500 point (or less) game. Or even better, a str. 10 trebuchet (or two...)

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OR's secret stealth poster since 9/09.

If you do face one, don't panic too much about that Def7. I use my Isengard Troll a lot and he has a Def8. Although he usually is pretty resistant to bowfire, there was a game when he suffered a Wound to VOLLEY FIRE of Str2 bows, and another wound a few turns later to a shot from Legolas.

That's why I would almost take Def9 as mandatory and pick whatever second option based on need. A 9 makes it VERY hard to score a Wound (not to mention very intimidating to your oponent).

As for taking one down, first approach it like a Balrog. If you don't NEED to, don't try to. Go for the Broken mark with the rest of his force (he can't have too much more considering the cost of this beast) and let the Courage tests do the work. If you do need to or just really want to, then don't do it part way. This is a major investment of your enemy and he may not have much to support it. Tag it with a cheap model

Try to bring forces that can manage the Courage tests to bear in one turn. Bodyguards are great for this in addition to heroes. Hit him with everything you can and don't hesitate. You want larger numbers against his.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com