Regarding the twins...

I've never had the pleasure of playing with or against them, so I cannot comment from experience. However, simply reviewing their profile leads me to believe that they should be extremely tactically flexible because of the special rule for their dual-wielded swords.

As for their wargear, I would run them with Heavy Armor and probably give them mounts if I were using them in a Rivendell force. If they're running with the Grey Company I would definitely give them bows and might even consider Elven Cloaks.

Here's a couple questions for those who have played with the twins: Should they run together on the table, so that they can back each other up, or is it better to use them as two better than average Captains and let them each lead their own small contingent? Also, how much, if at all, has the "Unbreakable Bond" special rule negatively affected the outcome of your games?

I'm interested in this discussion because I have a friend who just started the game and he is collecting a Rivendell force. I just gave him my two Twin blisters and I have a feeling that I'll be fighting them before long.

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Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies

I've always had them lead seperate contigents, each twin leading up a different flank. When I use the twins, I deploy on either side of the board, not on the middle of my deploymet zone, so the enemy is beset on two fronts by my forces.

The Unbreakable Bond rule is pretty handy, especially if you are charging a Terrifying enemy. The increased Strength is an added bonus too, but the negative to their Defense might seem as a turn off for would be Elven generals considering using them.

A note on the -1 Defense: It can be easily countered by purchasing Heavy Armor, and then he lowered Defense is the same as the Heroes would normally have, so would cause a little less grief among the Elven generals out there

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Tale of 9 Gamers 2010: The Misty Mountains/Angmar:

April: 0/3 choices complete

Yearly total: 50/74 models done O.o

This seems like a wise deployment decission. I see no reason why they should have to fight together.

Any specific reason for using them on the flanks Wolfy?

In addition to the Heavy Armour (good point) I'd also consider having them mounted. The ability to move them around quickly could be a great advantage.

Next...

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Curunír
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If I were going to take them with a Rivendell list, I would definitely take mounts for them to use as counter-chargers. It would be a handy way of keeping your archers from getting charged.

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Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies

The twins are one of the best values in the game -- they are so underpriced that when they first came out just about every good army I played against had them. They dropped out of sight for a while as high elves became less common, but they've made a comeback with the GC.

The biggest weakness is the unbreakable bond rule -- not because their defense lowers but because you totally lose control of them. For example, a favorite tactic of mine when playing against them is to kill one and then have the figure that did the deed take off running, pulling the other twin along.

How you use them depends on the force you want, how many points you can spend on them and how themed you want to be. In a HE army they should carry heavy armor at a minimum. In GC, it also helps and is perfectly themed if you are using Rangers of the North. Bows aren't a bad idea but remember they are combat heroes first and foremost. I usually only give them bows if I need an extra for volley fire. Unless your opponent has hero-busting figures (wraiths, bat swarms, wizards), get them dirty in H2H as soon as you can. And unless you have other cavalry, mounts are good if you may be playing Recon, Seize the Prize and other mobility based scenarios.

As far as playing them side by side or separately, for game purposes you are generally better off keeping them apart to maximize damage, but once one of them gets dented I'd try to get them closer together to help each other out or to allow the survivor to crush the one that kills his twin asap.

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What's taters, Precious? What's taters, eh?

It throws your opponent into disarray quickly from before the game starts. Most opponents deploy in the center of the table, and when they see that your center is empty, they start to worry.

The Elves can then assault the flanks ofthe enemy at leasure, fighting on two fronts instead of a standard one front if they had deployed and charged up from the center.

Always worked for me...

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Tale of 9 Gamers 2010: The Misty Mountains/Angmar:

April: 0/3 choices complete

Yearly total: 50/74 models done O.o

Be careful about bringing these guys mounted unless you have other mounts in the force as well. If they are mounted and you can kill one off the other will soon completely outpace any other forces in your army trying to make the vengence kill and will be an easier target himself. At least if your entire army is on foot then you can have some other forces following him closely to help out.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

I never used them on horseback. No real point until the Elven Knights are released, assuming Elladan and Elrohir can be allied to be in a force that uses them

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Tale of 9 Gamers 2010: The Misty Mountains/Angmar:

April: 0/3 choices complete

Yearly total: 50/74 models done O.o

Hmmm, to mount or not to mount, that's the question... for another CTD Topic.

I like the idea of having my Heroes (especially those acting as Captains) mounted for the very reason that they get around quickly to where they are needed, add extra ummph to a charge and act like Heroes. I also like Erunion's point...


Nice topic so far, let's keep it up.

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Curunír
Please visit My Gallery

True, however, as the line of troops is advancing towards the enemy, it would probably be prudent to keep the mounted Heroes behind the bulk of the infantry if there are no mounted units for them to lead. Otherwise, it is highly likely that their mount could be shot out from underneath them, and then effectively wasting the points spent on the horses because their bonuses were not used once.

Just my thoughts.

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Tale of 9 Gamers 2010: The Misty Mountains/Angmar:

April: 0/3 choices complete

Yearly total: 50/74 models done O.o

Absolutely. Or move them from cover to cover. You don't need them to lead the advance.

As to the issue of them being mounted creates problems when one dies, keep in mind that (1) it will also get you to a position to aid the other twin faster if you are separated; (2) it will allow you to chase down the killer faster if he takes off running; (3) by the time your first twin dies the lines are probably already heavily engaged so that he's not going to be running ahead of your main force; and (4) if you see that the other twin is in a desperate position and you can't help, you can dismount in regular movement, or call a heroic combat and dismount in the movement afterwards.

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What's taters, Precious? What's taters, eh?

A week has gone by and no new contributions. This topic has turned into quite a catalyst for related topics (tactics for mounted heroes) and I've enjoyed reading through the post.

At this point I'm hoping that our host (doop dude) will write up a summary of the topic and invite you all to make any final statements.

FYI, with Christmas fast approaching, I'll hold off on starting the new topic until after the 25th. I've listed a default topic in the Host list but please let me know if anyone has a burning desire to host the next topic.

Also, in January I'll be working with DurinsBane to come up with a plan for transfering all Tactical/Strategic discussions to a separate forum. If you have any ideas or comments about the new forum, please PM me.

Cheers

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Curunír
Please visit My Gallery

[center][/center]
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The current topic is...
Gondor in Flames; New Heroes, Troops and Tactics
Hosted by: Curunír

Topic Description: An in-depth look at this sourcebook all about the proud realm of Gondor; focus will be on new Heroes, Troops and the Tactics available to bring victory to the White Tree!



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The Continuous Tactical Discussion Thread (CTD) has changed to a rotating host/subject format. New Topics will now be suggested by active members, and the role of Host will be the responsibility of the person in charge of the New Topic. If you are interested in hosting a subject, please sign up by replying in the HOST/TOPIC LIST thread.

Happy discussions!

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Curunír
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Welcome back! New year = new topic.

To start off this discussion let's take a look at the new Heroes and Warriors released with Gondor in Flames. If you would like to comment, but do not have the Gondor in Flames Sourcebook, a Profile Summary Sheet is available online for download from the GW website. Here is an overview of the new profiles.

[h2]Defenders of Gondor[/h2]
[center]HEROES[/center]
[split][col][itemlist]•Forlong the Fat

The Lord of Lossarnach has above average strength, wears heavy armour and wields a spear. Despite his large size"...a blow from the Lord of Lossarnach is likely to shatter any shield set to thwart his strike"
(Gondor in Flames, pg. 12)[/itemlist][/col][col][aimg]img477eeccbb9733.jpg[/aimg][/col][col][itemlist]•Angbor the Fearless

The Clan Chief of Lamedon has above average courage and wields a two-handed blade. Otherwise he is unarmed and it is written that "...Angbor has never once fled the field of battle, no matter how desperate the situation."
(Gondor in Flames, pg. 12)[/itemlist][/col][/split]
Although they may not be quite so mighty as other Heroes of Gondor, Forlong and Angbor are welcome additions who are more than able to lead their Fiefdom Warriors.

[center]WARRIORS[/center]
[split][col]•Man-at-Arms of Dol Amroth.
Sturdy foot soldiers sworn to the prince's service, they wield deadly pikes which support the knights.
"Unlike the Swan Knights, these Men-at-arms are of common birth, but are no less dedicated to the protection of Gondor and Dol Amroth."
(Gondor in Flames, pg.20)[/col][col][aimg]img477eed2c4fa3c.jpg[/aimg][/col][/split]

[split][col]•Axeman of Lossarnach.
Followers of Forlong, they wield a broad bladed axe combined with a spear and may use the axe as a spear or a two handed weapon.
"This peculiarity holds its origins in the earliest days of Gondor, when the first Lord of Lossarnach used such a weapon to great effect in the defence of his liege."
(Gondor in Flames, pg.20)[/col][col][aimg]img477eed7d8039f.jpg[/aimg][/col][/split]

[split][col]•Clansmen of Lamedon.
Fanatically loyal soldiers to their chief, Angbor, they wield two-handed swords into battle.
"Undisciplined and preferring a wilder way of fighting, such folk may be unsuited to the ordered battlelines at the heart of Gondor's armies but they are formidable skirmishers..."
(Gondor in Flames, pg.20)
[/col][col][aimg]img477eed91ce4a2.jpg[/aimg][/col][/split]

[split][col]•Rider of the Dead.
Faster than the the Warriors of the Dead, they cause Terror, wield a spectral blade and ride a Spectral Steed. However, the rider and the mount are counted as one; they do not receive cavalry bonuses.[/col][col] [aimg]img477eeda48ec29.jpg[/aimg][/col][/split]

NOTE: In addition to these new miniatures and profile, a set of plastic Knights of Minas Tirith has also been released, making Minas Tirith Cavalry more affordable for the serious Gondor player.

NOTE TWO: There are now 19 Heroes and 14 Warrior types available for the various Gondorian Armies, which I believe makes Gondor one of the most flexible and variable Armies in the game.

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So what are your views, opinions and comments?

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Curunír
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I have to note that this time GW didnt make any totally uberhero, and the minis look rather good and the rules are quite good too...

Though very much liked the Axemen of Lossornatch seem to be flexible and deadly

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I am the Mouth of Sauron, here him speak'

Initially, I must say I love the figures.

As for who is what, here's the good:

I predict Forlong and the Axemen will be all over the place this year. Forlong is a ridiculous value with S* and W*. A cheap, effective hero to lead an allied Fiefdom list.

The axemen are also tremendously versatile. A figure than can support OR fight 2-handed? Very cool.

DA men at arms are nice, good finally can build a true phalanx, although with the risk that entails.

Riders of the dead -- overpriced. but not bad to fill out the extra points in an AotD force.

Now the not-so good:

Angbor and The Clansman aren't bad, but why would you take them unless you are building an all-fiefdom list and want to be inclusive? That's the problem of the Lossarnachians being so buff, and the clansmen being so limited in weaponry.

And finally one complaint:

Could someone explain why ALL the fiefdom warriors are better FV than the basic WOMT? In most ancient and military history, fiefdom and vassal troops were almost inevitably less effective than the main contingent. (If they weren't, they probably wouldn't have been vassals!) Even the DA men at arms should probably be F3. Certainly the others as well.

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What's taters, Precious? What's taters, eh?

On a point of F4, GW seems to be making everything have it noiwadays...

The best thing about the new supplement, I think, is the release of Good Pikemen. You can now have a phalanx of Minas Tirith soldiers and Men-at-Arms (or Knights of Dol Amroth with Inrahil in the center of the phalanx) to counter any movements of the Evil player, slowly and staeily making your way forward, arrows bouncing carelessly off of your heavy armor and shields.

If Imrahil is in the center (meaning the center of the front line, of course) of the block, then every Knight with him not only has three Attacks each (and Imrahil 5), but they can re-roll one of their dice, thanks to their Special Rule.

That's all I really want to comment on now, but hopefully it helped

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Tale of 9 Gamers 2010: The Misty Mountains/Angmar:

April: 0/3 choices complete

Yearly total: 50/74 models done O.o

I really think gondor can get quite overpowered with this combanation, Imharill in the center with knights on his sides, spearmen and then pikes, 4 attacks with the FV of swan knights, try breaking through that... lets see 500pts could get you Imharil and a phalanx 6 wide on each side. Although not very versitile it could really beat the crud out of most players. As to beat it i would have to say a Mumak or A wraith, troll chieftan and moronnon orcs Dragon fire would preform wonderfully as well. Hope i didn't get to far off topic....

agreed



definitely agreed! it is always the case when a new book comes out! i visited my local GW a few times after each supplement came out: new different armies every time!



agreed (gosh this is getting repetitive!). they are very flexible, and can be used to bolster your main line, or hold an objective or flank.



they are, as stated in curinir's original post, very good skirmishers. also, they would be great for distractions. do you know how much a normal player would freak out about those guys coming into your flank? (except if you're a grey company, elves, dwarves or isengard player of course... just fill them with arrows!)



WOW! i was just about to ask why take the risk of a phalanax, but, seeing as you put it that way....

now, my general summary of the range...

Forlong: great, but overpowered.

Angbor: OVERRATED! sure, he's a good fighter and all that but.... totally fearless??!! come on, in that pellenor fields battle report a while back it was angbor who fled and pippin who kept the clansmen in their place!

Men-at-arms of Dol Amroth: good, as said above...

Axeman of Lossarnach: Great! not to good poses, though...

Clansmen of Lamedon: alright

Riders of the Dead: pff.... go to hell, point's filler! (hell won't be stopped by the filters will it?)

Plastic Knights of Minas Tirith: BOOYAH, BABY!

rock on

doopy

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Kill WOTR, yeah?

Looks like you're all slowing down.

I think the main tactical gain is all of the variety of troops that have been added. In the past Minas Tirith has been limited in tactics because of the lack of variety. In most games that I have played against Gondor, my opponent has invariably formed a shield wall and marched the whole mess slowly towards my line which tends to get deadlocked.

The pikes will add a new dimension to that line. The skirmish troops will also add an additional factor.

I've seen several comments about the higher fight value of the fiefdom troops. My guess is that this is an attemt by GW to add some elite troops to the mix without having to revamp all of Gondor. I agree that it is a bit strange that they all have a FV of 4, I'm guessing that they will not be taken in large numbers, simply used to flesh out an army.

Any more comments?

Next up... I'd like to look at each host in turn and discuss their strengths/weaknesses, possible tactics and potential army/allies list.

Cheers

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Curunír
Please visit My Gallery