I don't think the Men of Numenor are as powerful as they are referred to being in the books. They only equal the skill of Guards and Captains of Middle-Men, where they actually should be better. They had the strength of arms to subdue Sauron and force his armies to flee. They are acknowledged as the best army of their time, and while they shouldn't be better than Elves, they should be in the same league at least. Here are some revised profiles for Numenoreans, as well as one for Anarion.

Warrior of Numenor - Points Value: 9

F/Sh S D A W C
4/3+ 4 5 1 1 4

Warriors of Numenor wear armour and carry swords. They may be equipped with the following for the cost indicated:

Shield - 1pt
Spear - 1pt
Steel bow - 2pts
Lance - 1pt
Horse - 6pts
Banner - 30pts

Steel bow: Counts as an Elf bow.
______________________________________________________

Anarion, King of Gondor - 100pts

F S D A W C
6 4 7 3 3 6

M:3
W:2
F:1

Anarion wears ancient heavy armour and carries a sword. He may be given the following for the cost indicated:

Shield - 5pts
Lance - 5pts
Horse - 10pts

Boldest of the Bold: See Cirion's profile for details.
______________________________________________________


So I've basically given every Numenorean the Dunedain's profile, save the Heroic stats. I figure if the Rangers are this potent, why weren't the Numenoreans before their degredation?

_________________
Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

I think that's too similiar to elves. They have the same shoot walue, same bows, same strength (I think ) and same defense if you give them a shield, maybe making them a little less good at shooting, even if you just increase their Fight value by 1 instead of their shoot?

FM

The only thing they have in common is Shoot Value, Attacks and Wounds. Almost every warrior has 1 Attack and 1 Wound, and the 3+ Shoot is shared with troop types from Rohan, Arnor, Gondor, Dwarves, and every Elf.

_________________
Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

I like this. Very good point!

Their fight value is 2 below an elfs(what it should be) and their courage is 1 less. They would naturally be better than the men from The third age. They would most likely be more courageous than the men of the third age having to fight Sauron at his highest point.

VERY good point. I would give you a gold coin for bringing this up if I had any! The units in the game are either to powerful or not good enough. This is some thing GW has yet to see in all of their systems that I have played! (Warhammer, Warhammer 40k)

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Remember to stretch before you paint.....

I agree wiith you Lord Hurin. The Numenorean's are not as strong as they are in the books and I would like to see your profile someday being used for them. I like your inclusion of the Numenorean's famous steel bows and of Anarion who should've been included as a model.

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"Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn’ Ambar-metta" - Elendil

I like this, Lord Hurin. It is true to the books without making them uber-troopers. Now, if we could convince GW to adopt this profile and release a plastic boxed-set of 8x sword/shield, 8x spear/shield, and 8x bows we would be set. (If I were really greedy, I'd call for plastic cavalry as well.)

_________________
Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies

GW has failed to do alot of things. Elnaith, metals that should have been plastics, price hikes, the list goes on to before I was born(1993)

But as I said Up top, this is a great Idea, as Erunion said, true to the books but not totaly overpowering.

We should find some of these problems, send them to GW and see if they will fix them.

A bit of a long shot, but (Saurons) (minions) must be stopped at some point. I would be willing to help if any body takes this up.

But as I said, a bit of a Long shot.

_________________
Remember to stretch before you paint.....

The increase in strength alone would be enough for me -- but I like the profile. These guys should be nearly as good as elves. I'm the only person I know who's ever played these guys in a tournament, as part of a Last Alliance list. If they had better stats I'd use them routinely.

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What's taters, Precious? What's taters, eh?

Hmmm, they are good, but with that stat line you are making them better than Elves. If Numoreans get S4, then shouldn't Elves (who have been practicing their combat prowess for millenia) have an equal value strength?

You can say that this is justified with the F and C values, but in normal game terms Uruk-hai can rip through most Elven lines with ease because of their high strength values. I realise that Numoreans are seen as a higher breed due to their higher stature against the 3rd Age men, but some of the stat increases, especially in the shoot value are a little OTT.

For instance, using the movie as an example of military skill; Elven archers could shoot through about 2-3 ranks of warriors with deadly precision, and it is a skill that the Elves took for granted. Men on the other hand used a more primitive version of the shooting volley - loosing a volley, and then crouching down or stepping back to allow their next rank of archers an opportunity to shoot. In regards for the steel bow, in Weapons and Warfare it claims that 3rd age Gondorians use exactly the same weapon as they did back in the age of Numenor, and they are only S2, and seem to be quite capable of dishing out damage already.



The Rangers were a race of Half-Elves(Men with Elven Blood) and don't they have S3? Numenor may have been mighty, but they were still men, and were easily seduced by Sauron.

Combat prowess is shown with their much higher Fighting
Elves are still elves, not much body building (:

But yes its true that S4 and /3+ makes them really that much better.

But if your read Unfinished Tales and the like, there are many passages that make the Numenoreans seem more suited for combat than the Elves.


Weapons and Warfare is known to be rife with mistakes, and this may be one of them. The Gondorians of the Third Age certainly don't use the same armour. They don't use the same shields, swords and spears. If some of the steel bows did survive into the War of the Ring, wouldn't it make sense that the Citadel Guard, who were "Dressed in the livery of Elendil" would get them? They get longbows, which are the same.

As for the shooting value, I'm willing to take it down to 4+.




The only Men with Elvish blood in the Third Age were the men of Dol Amroth. The Rangers of the North/Dunedain were simply Numenoreans who hadn't interbred with "Middle Men" (Rohirrim, Beornings, Men of Dale, etc) and thus kept the nobility of Westernesse. They DO have S4.




Than Elves? Elves still have a far better chance to win the fight, are less likely to run away when broken, have access to 2-handed weapons, etc etc.

If you were talking about making them better than other Men, then yes. They SHOULD be better than anything Rohan has to offer. Comparing a full-blood Numenorean to a Middle-Man is almost like comparing an Elf to a Numenorean.

_________________
Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

I don't like them as it makes them better and cheaper than elves when fighting orcs from Mordor; with this profile and weapon options why would you take elves? Also shouldn't spears be compulsory for non-archers as the writings do imply this.

I agree that Warriors of Numenor are underpowered, but I think your point costs don't reflect the huge boosts you've given.



I think the boost in Strength and Courage are enough, and worth 9 points. Shoot should not be as good as elves, they might have been tougher and stronger, but not more skilled or elegant. Having a native Def of 4 for basic troops seems high for the point cost. I'd prefer native Def of 3, with the option of heavy armour.

And maybe the steel bow should count as a Dwarf bow (less range).



You still have to price them accordingly, or you can't set up a fair game. An Uruk-hai costs 9 points, and has worse Shoot and Courage, and only has Def 5 because they wear heavy armour. So your troops would have to cost at least 11. Dunedain cost 24 points, so subtract out the heroic stats and you're somewhere in the low teens. Besides, the characters represented by the Dunedain were not the average man-in-the-street (or woods), they were the local leaders, heads of houses, etc.

I think if you made them like Uruk-Hai Scouts with better Courage, you could get away with costing them at 9 points, with the option of heavy armour.

Ok, I've revised the Numenorean profile a bit. However, as no one has commented on Anarion, I will take this to mean he is alright.

Warrior of Numenor - Points value: 9

F/Sh S D A W C
4/4+ 4 4 1 1 4

Warriors of Numenor wear armour and carry swords. They may be equipped with the following for the cost indicated:

Shield - 1pt
Spear - 1pt
Steel bow - 2pts
Heavy armour - 1pt
Lance - 1pt
Horse - 6pts
Banner - 30pts

Steel bow: Counts as an Elf bow.

Hopefully that's better. Now to retort some of the criticism.

Shoot value has rarely been factored into points costs by GW. I imagine they're one of those things that would be a "half-point" if such things were used.

@Hithero: I think an all-spears rule wouldn't be in the best interest for the miniature range. Even if GW themselves adopted this profile, they wouldn't go for something that would make part of their range of models useless. Some among us don't have the patience/time/skill for converting swordsmen into spearmen. On the topic thoughm do you know of a pin-vice like tool that I can get without spending 30 bucks? I haven't been able to find one.

@Whafrog: As far as I can tell, the Rangers of the North are simply referred to as the last surviving Dunedain of Arnor. Halbarad is noted as being Aragorn's kinsman, but the others are the "Rank and file" of Arnor. Note that the Dunedain and Rangers have a Courage of 5, which I put down to being out in the wilderness of Eridaor and facing nameless ancient terrors on a daily basis.

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Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

You can get many pin-vices from eBay for just a few £$ and the Numenorian swordsmen are easy to convert to spears as you can use the cut-off sword as the spear tip and is very quick and easy to do - was probably my first LOTR conversions.

Now that the shoot value is worse (or better?) I think the units are excellent!
I think that the reasoning behind their shoot value is in the steel bows, perhaps it's not because they were good archers that they made them, but maybe that they weren't as great, and compensated by making excellent bows, just a suggestion...

Great job though, and yes, Anarion is definitely alright, but maybe give him another fate?

FM

Thank you, Falcon Master. Obviously not everyone will agree that they are right, but hopefully this will give people more incentive to use them. Obviously the lack of variety, combined with the almost infuriating need to buy Elves to get plastic Numenoreans has contributed to them being possibly the least (independantly) played army in the game!

As for Anarion's Fate, he was killed by a boulder cast from Barad-Dur. I think that's enough reason for him to have just one Fate point. As for the Boldest of the Bold special rule, he was courageous enough to stay in Gondor while his brother fled to Arnor to get aid from their father.

Overall, I was extremely disappointed with Anarion's "official" profile in WD. They made him basically a named Captain.

_________________
Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

I like it, except I still think the steel bow should count as a dwarf bow.
That said, I do think these stats would allow for a fair game. I just have to convince my son
Now I'm wondering about captains. If I have time I'll offer captain stats to be flamed upon

Regarding the line of descendency, IMHO the Rangers were ALL post-Numenorians, even the average low point warriors. I don't think the Arnorians mixed with the middle earth men like they did in Gondor. After the destruction of Arnor they simply faded into the underbrush.

But in all honesty, I don't think Tolkien envisioned anything like the "Rangers of Arnor" as they are in the game. I think GW only put them in the Grey Company list to placate players who wanted more models in their GC army, and as another selling point for the Rangers box.

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Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

Good point...but that would be true of the Elves as well (at least the Noldor). There weren't many of them left by the end of the third age, but each one was potent. Any random Noldor would probably outmatch any random Numenorean.

It might be more literarily accurate if you could field a force comprised of Dunedain equivalents (for Numenor) and Sentinal equivalents (with different powers and weapons for the Noldor), paying the appropriate costs. How would such a small force fair against a much larger but cost-equivalent army?