Light and heavy cavalry

whafrog · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:50 pm

IMHO the game doesn't distinguish between light and heavy cavalry. Historically light (unarmoured) horse would want to face heavy horse about as much as infantry would...which is to say, not at all. And heavy horse would be considerably slower.

Light cavalry: no armour, move 10"/24cm, charge rules as current.

Heavy (armoured) cavalry: armour, move 8"/20cm.
- When charging, get +1 to the fight roll
- Knockdown still only applies to infantry.
- Counter-charges by heavy cavalry mitigate this as normal.
- Counter-charges by light cavalry remove the +1 to fight bonus, but not the extra attack or knockdown of infantry
- Heavy cavalry cost +3 points for warriors, +10 points for heroes.

Comments? I'm not sure about the +1 to fight roll, maybe +2 attacks is better...something to represent them bowling over everything in their path. If it's +2 attacks, then being counter-charged by light cavalry reduces this to +1 attack.

Angrok · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:55 pm

I like the idea of distinguishing them but I am not sure how to best do it and keep things simple. Right now Heavy Cavalry is pretty good but mostly because they are harder to bring down at range. Certainly a reduction in speed is in order. The +1 attack when charging may be an option. Alternatively... perhaps just outright give all heavy cavalry in the game a +1 attack in their profile. However, this will push all of their cost up a bit despite moving slower.

hithero · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:28 pm

I've been toying with the idea too, not with LOTR but my Rome V Celt adaptation. We have recently fielded a unit of heavily armoured cataphracts (D6 horse armour) and agree with the 8" move. We haven't messed with horse v heavy horse combats yet and your methods appear to be to involved, not streamline enough for LOTR. How about heavily armoured riders on barded horses (really heavy cavalry) just count as monstrous mounts when charging? A light cavalry mount will be just as likely to be bowled over by something with twice its mass as an infantryman.

King Elessar the Uniter · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:02 pm

I like your ideas! :yay:

Though I think I would agree with the higher number of attacks than the higher fight value. The monstrous mounts idea is a good one too, but it could put the points cost up a lot!

Haradrim Raider · **Joined:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:45 pm **Posts:** 12

I'm sure horses would be slower, yet ur saying that an Armoured Horse would move the same as a pony. As for the other rules, I think they look really cool.

gaarew · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:12 pm

Have you considered leaving heavy cavalry as is, and changing how light cavalry works instead?

Would this be any easier?

Or might it be an idea to completely re-write how cavalry works, and make a distinctive definition of what constitutes light and heavy cavalry?

Light -

Riders of Rohan
Outriders
Warg Riders
Khandish Mercenaries
Haradrim Raiders
Mounted Ranger of the North

Heavy -

Knights of Minas Tirith
Rohan Royal Guard (thanks!)
Swan Knights of Dol Amroth
Morgul Knights
Easterling Kataphracts
Mahud Raiders (possibly with some sort of Courage penalty for nearby horses)
Serpent Riders

Misc/Potential -

Warg
Giant Spider
Mounted Heroes
Riders of the Dead

I've probably overlooked something, and I don't know if you'd want to include models that are classes as cavalry, such as Giant Spiders, or if you want to limit it to standard mount and rider models.

King Elessar the Uniter · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:19 pm

Good ideas gaarew! :yay:

Seeing as Rohan are meant to be the best horse masters (except perhaps for Elves) though it would fit that they would have the option of both light and heavy cavalry, so perhaps the Royal Guard would count as h.cavalry? Just a thought.

(And also extra bonuses for all mounted Rohirrim - higher fight value?).

whafrog · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:22 pm

@hithero: I thought about monstrous mounts, but figured an Easterling kataphract should still be bowled over by the Spider Queen.

@Haradrim Raider: yes, I think so. Armour weighs a lot, and horses that are big enough to carry it don't tend to be speedy.

gaarew · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:22 pm

King Elessar the Uniter wrote:

Good ideas gaarew! :yay:

Seeing as Rohan are meant to be the best horse masters (except perhaps for Elves) though it would fit that they would have the option of both light and heavy cavalry, so perhaps the Royal Guard would count as h.cavalry? Just a thought.

(And also extra bonuses for all mounted Rohirrim - higher fight value?).

I knew I'd missed something...

Thanks. Well, there is also Elven and Dunlending cavalry to think about, and, potentially Chariots if the rules are being re-written.

With Riders of Rohan, it's entirely possible to just give them the FV of 4 as that has been included in WotR.

King Elessar the Uniter · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:25 pm

gaarew wrote:

With Riders of Rohan, it's entirely possible to just give them the FV of 4 as that has been included in WotR.

Really? Brilliant!

Thanks, I didn't know!

gaarew · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:27 pm

Grrr.... stoopid button.

Haradrim Raider · **Joined:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:45 pm **Posts:** 12

Surely even If they did move as slow as ponies, they wouldn't be getting the normal charging bonuses because they're so slow. Infantry don't get charging bonuses, so why should Cavalry that move just 2 inches more?

King Elessar the Uniter · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:36 pm

gaarew wrote:

Grrr.... stoopid button.

?

hithero · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:00 pm

whafrog wrote:

@hithero: I thought about monstrous mounts, but figured an Easterling kataphract should still be bowled over by the Spider Queen.

They still would be, like many other beasties they only count as MM when charging, if charged by a The Spider Queen they will be knocked over.

hithero · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:05 pm

Haradrim Raider wrote:

Surely even If they did move as slow as ponies, they wouldn't be getting the normal charging bonuses because they're so slow. Infantry don't get charging bonuses, so why should Cavalry that move just 2 inches more?

Because its the weight of the charge and not just the speed, half a ton of armoured horse will knock you over even just walking, let alone at a canter - ask your science teacher

whafrog · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:59 pm

hithero wrote:

I've been toying with the idea too, not with LOTR but my Rome V Celt adaptation.

About this adaptation, are you using SBG rules for Romans and Celts? If so, feel like sharing? I have a friend who really likes these rules, but prefers to game with early renaissance, like Polish Hussars and Cossacks, etc. Let me know if you feel like starting a new thread on a different board.

whafrog · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:06 pm

gaarew wrote:

Have you considered leaving heavy cavalry as is, and changing how light cavalry works instead?

I've thought cavalry was slightly underpowered to begin with, so I'd rather give heavy cavalry a boost.

Quote:

I've probably overlooked something, and I don't know if you'd want to include models that are classes as cavalry, such as Giant Spiders, or if you want to limit it to standard mount and rider models.

I like your categories. I always thought Wild Wargs should get the (light) cavalry charge bonus, not sure about RoD and spiders. As for heroes, the heavy/light definition depends on what they're riding. An armoured horse would cost 25 with these rules instead of 15.

gaarew · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:14 pm

You could always apply a sliding scale.

Infantry model<non-mounted 'Cavalry mode' (Giant Spider, Warg)<Light Cavalry<Heavy Cavalry<Monstrous Mount,

So that the charger gets the bonuses against all opponents lower than them.

King Elessar the Uniter · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:21 pm

gaarew wrote:

You could always apply a sliding scale.

Infantry model<non-mounted 'Cavalry mode' (Giant Spider, Warg)<Light Cavalry<Heavy Cavalry<Monstrous Mount,

So that the charger gets the bonuses against all opponents lower than them.

That's an interesting idea!

whafrog · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:24 pm

gaarew wrote:

You could always apply a sliding scale.

Infantry model<non-mounted 'Cavalry mode' (Giant Spider, Warg)<Light Cavalry<Heavy Cavalry<Monstrous Mount,

So that the charger gets the bonuses against all opponents lower than them.

I like that, then the basic rules don't change, only the determination of whether a counter-charge mitigates it. Still...

"Eventually Longshanks will bring his whole northern army against us."
"Heavy horse...shake the very ground..."

Light and heavy cavalry

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