@ncea: i only have the MoM set rulebook, so i don't know about the Haldir defender of helms deep or the galadhrim capt. And elven blades are only one point so no points difference between the normal hand weapon. I moulded extra shields out of greenstuff for my WOTR army(just so they look nice )so my elves have shields,and i use them in a shield wall so i kinda need them.
@isengard owns: i think i'm ok on the bow limit as i played in a tournament in my local GW with 24 elves, 8 of them armed with bows and haldir, and the staff running it said heroes do count in the bow limit.

Well, if your Elves have shields then use them. It's not much of a problem to convert them to have a regular sword and shield. One of my regular opponents did this and they look great and are much more efficient! You don't need the Elven blades, drop them and get another Elf with heavy armour and shield so you're in line with the bow limit.

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Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

Well actually elven blades are 1 point more(elves all ready have a hand weapon) the reason there 1 point more is cause you can use them as a two-handed weapon. Also you cant use a two-handed weapon with a shield so whats the point?

and yes i would keep the shields also..

but in the MoM rulebook it says elf warriors have no equipment?

these are Galadhrim

Elven Blades are standard, the only way to get rid of them is either with a spear or a bow

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It's not about our past.
It's about our future.

MoM rulebook, wargear section:
for hand weapons: "the rules already assume a warrior is armed in this way..."
for unarmed models: "...when this is the case it will be clearly specified in its entry."

so as i see it, unless it said in the profile that model is unarmed (Galadriel and Celeborn for example) it is assumed to carry hand weapon.

but then again the elven sword is a hand weapon with a option to be used as a two handed one.
and elven warrior profile states that he does not carry any equipment, but not that he is unarmed.

I would say that elven warriors have hand weapons for free.

on the second thought nearly all profiles in the book clarify that the model is carrying a hand weapon. But I will still argue that elves don't get -1 penalty for being unarmed, as it is not stated that they are in the profile.
and Celeborn for example has an option for an elven sword.
also berserker is said to carry only two-handed weapon. does he still have an option to fight without penalty?
P.S. does Gollum count as having natural weapons (claws, teeth)?

Yes, an elven warrior has a hand weapon for free, but in my opinion you should either pay the extra points for elven blades or sculpt them to look like hand weapons.

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Link to "ByThe Book"

This is handled in the FAQ on GW's site. Unless a profile specifically states it is "unarmed", it has a hand weapon. Yes, a berzerker can fight normally. Not sure about gollum's profile.

Why? GW are too complacent to put out properly armed Elves, why is that out fault? I'm not saying not to convert, but for those who don't have the skills why should they have to field a sub-par army because GW can't do proper High Elves?



Actually, he's using the "High Elf" profiles. Note the heavy armour. I think the way GW handled the Galadhrim wargear is absolutely atrocious and is the main reason I didn't buy any.

_________________
Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

GW are also too complacent to put out properly armed orcs. Those I want would have zero equipment (except hand weapon) instead of two handed axes and bows. If I were to play against you, would you allow me to simply say that my orcs with 2h weapon and bows were only carrying a hand weapon.

Another valid argument is that elves get 1+Fight, 1+Courage and woodland creature without any point decrease. The least thing you could do is to pay the points for their equipment. Therefore I can not see how elves would be sub par, just because you pay a point for equipment you minature is armed with.

And finally I would like to point at my previous Gondor vs Uruks argument. Say that you were playing Uruk-Hai (S4). How would you reacted if your opponent simply said that his warriors armed with shields (D6) did not have shields, his reason for doing so would of course be that he did not intend to use their shields seeing as it wouldn't matter when you stroke at him with S4.

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Link to "ByThe Book"

Well, it depends on preference, of course. I throw my Orcs with 2-handers in with my Orcs with shield Companies in WoTR. I give the spearmen shields, but not the 2-handers. For SBG I don't know. The difference, in any case, is that there are models of Orcs with shields, with spears, with 2H weapons, with bows and even metal siege crew that have only hand weapons. There are NO Elf models with heavy armour, hand weapon and shield.

Personally, I used High Elves with spears and cut off the majority of the spear shaft to make my Elves with hand weapon and shield. A friend of mine used the Elven blades, took off the long handle and made them one handed. He then bought a bunch of metal Elf shields (back when GW had the bitz for LoTR) and glued those to the other hand. It was a fair amount of converting work, but cheaper than my way in the long run. Another consideration is the extent to which you must convert. One guy wanted my friend to pay the point for each blade because "hand weapons aren't curved. your Elves have Elven blades."

As for your Gondor vs Uruk-hai scenario, if it was a tournament and the Gondorian player didn't use shields throughout then maybe I'd be fine with it. Some people just want to squeeze those last couple troops in. If it was a pick-up game and he obviously just did it to gain leverage then I may be a little less forgiving about it. I think it would depend on my opponent's demeanour about it though.

This really does bring up the point that not all of GW's products are perfectly suited. I still think the Elven example is a glaring one though; Elven blades are barely useful. No one I've ever played has used more than 4-6, whereas they would LOVE to have hand weapons and shields. [/i]

_________________
Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

I'm not sure whether I like the idea of converting Elves to get hand weapons. As Gothmog 3rd pointed put, the elves do not pay for 1 point of fighting skill and 1 point of courage, so paying an extra point for one third of your army to give them elf blades is not unreasonable. I find power gaming is a sign of poor sportsmanship, and if I weren't in a good mood I may not allow it. Elves are a powerful army, and you don't need to scrape every last point possible to win.

Why give them hand weapons at all then? They used to be unarmed, iirc. Maybe it's "cheap" but it's logical and in theme. Why would Elf shields be apparently glued to spears?

_________________
Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

How do you figure that? An unarmoured elf is 7 points, for a profile that has the same trouble as anyone else against D6, and their bows cost twice as much, without being twice as effective.



I'm not sure giving elves *allowed equipment* is power gaming. It's not like Gamling with a host of Outriders. And I don't think elves are winning any tournaments lately. Elf heroes are expensive, and the game favours quantity over quality.

Well if i entered a tournament i would surely win with my elves im just tooooo goood (im joking by the way, ive never even enter a tournament and ive only ever played with 3 different people in sbg )