It isn't the shieldwall that is the problem for MT warrs. Despite both Uruks and Morranans looking better on paper, they are equivalent troops to MT, and MT warrs are much cheaper than the Uruks.

Gondor can take both Axemen and Knights, for 25pts each, to smash into enemy formations. Vs Isengard shieldwall with Lurtz particularly, you probably want to make that Axemen. It is hard for Isengard, especcially when they lean on big units, to cope with a Gondor force that can just use units of three MT warrs to get around the flanks somewhere .

On the other hand, Isengard xbows can shred MT troops as they approach and are hardly shabby in melee. They get this combined with one of the better ruin casters in the game. So a good Gondor amry will need more than just its infantry and cav IMO.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

One of the big equalizers for Gondor, I think, is their Epics. Boromir, for example, with his six Might, can basically guarantee that he's going to wreck shop on whatever he gets ahold of, assuming he's willing to blow enough Might to do it. Faramir and Imrahil ain't too shabby either, and there's always Aragorn.

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"What's so civil about war, anyway?"

I meant something along the lines of "I recommend Gandalf for a formation of rangers because his Epic Defence comes in really handy". But, as I said earlier, never mind.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Right, you want to know how to use the Istari? Were Gondor has the most potential to be 'outgunned' is in shooting or a combination of shooting and magic. Gondor just does not have the cost-effective 'reach' that many evil lists can achieve simply.

To handle that using the sort of stuff you usually have in a Gondor list, you need 1. More mobility - so all your formations need to be doubling up / or key formations can collectively 'heroic move' (however, 'heroic move'+'Epic Journey' are fast but need to be able to do something other than charging when they get there). The Istari do not help so much there, though Radagast does add pathfinders and a greater infantry charge, which is why I personally prefer him. The Istari will he helping with 2. Either blasting the shooting formations close up (Saruman) or better yet using call winds or transfix to disrupt their shooting. Radagast again, might have a slight edge here in that he makes it untenable to camp in defensible terrain as a counter to Gondor's cheap lancers. Those that can, might as well use 'Epic Defense' on the screening formations. Versus crossbows this probably halves your casualties but needs to be on every priority target in LOS to be worth it.

This leads in a roundabout way to why I prefer smaller Gondor formations over larger ones. There is no particular reason why your opponent has to choose killer shooting over killer magic, so there very likely will be spellcasters doing all of the disruptive things in point '2.' to your own army. Faramir should always reserve his ability to prevent a 'transfix' vs opponents with Nazgul.

The fact that Gondor needs to have a plan to close and bring it's melee strengths (cost efficiency) to bear is why I agree with posters above that Boromir (with the might battery, of course) is an excellent Gondor commander.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

I don't quite understand what this argument about istari is all about. If we're talking Gondor here I presume we are not talking about allies who can fill in their gaps.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

My argument purely relates to how to run an actual Gondor list vs the type of opponents that I find the most challenging.

A Gondor list where you don't have the option of allies seems a bit hypothetical. Certainly, I've never faced that restriction here.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

That's not quite what the thread is about. I think the purpose of the thread is to show how each force plays and how to reveal better the force's ups and downs. Of course many players would ally in a wizard but that complicates things by stopping us from being able to pick out what the force lacks, not how a typical army of Gondor+allies lacks.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

From the old SBG CTD thread, we generally tried to discuss the strong and weak points of a list on its own merits. The obvious role of allies is to shore up those weak points and/or enhance the strong points. But to really understand, compare and discuss a list objectively against others you need to look at it as a stand-alone.

I don't think there is anything wrong with offering up a suggestion in the discussion of which allies you think may be best but I do not believe that allies should have any bearing on the individual merit discussions of an army and army comparisons in this thread are best served by sticking to the models and Formations that are core to that list (so let's leave the Nazgul out of the Fallen Realms and Isengard discussions when they come around ).

Just my opinion though.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

How about you guys that only want to discuss one version of Gondor actually discuss that version of Gondor? rather than derailing the thread into 'policing' others posts lol The thread as a whole is only going to be what the posters make it.

What was a small part of my original bit on Gondor, which covered how I saw the list as a whole playing vs certain opponents, what I saw as the key problems for the list and how I would mitigate them has been really teased out by successive posters. For a tactics thread, not many people have offered much in the way of in-depth tactics.

I would like to learn something here too, so wouldn't it be more constructive to share specific advice than nitpick?

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

Actually some specific Nazgul are part of Fallen Realms & Angmar, but I know you're only setting an example. Next time I'll be more specific about restrictions in a topic. No harm done suggesting the allies that could fill in the gaps of a faction's weak point though the subject matter ain't about alliances and their tactics. We'll save that for a more specific subject when it comes to allies. Mainly faction discussions are general views & criticism of it's army list which many here have provided so far. We'll get into in-depth tactics soon enough when we discuss specific formations and troop types.

Well this was a good kick off to the thread. Let's keep it rolling.

Topic of the Week
Factions
MORDOR

What are your general thoughts about this faction; strengths, weaknesses, troops, playing with & against? Don't go into details about alliances, keep to the faction as stand alone for purposes of reviewing it. Rate the faction on a scale of 1 to 5 based on how they measure up in choices of troops and how well the army plays.

Well, I've already done it, but will again; Mordor is definitely a 'five'. Easy to see why:

1. All Ringwraiths

2. Morranan Orcs as 25pt Def 7, str 4 common troops, 20pt 2HW orcs with 'Wings of Terror', 20pt bow Orcs.

3. A few bad options in their support choices, but plenty of excellent ones. Black Guard, Siege bows, Morgul Knights, and many more good ones. So no need to even bring allies into it.

4. Plenty of good monster choices.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

Easily the most dominant army. The Nazgul only having one Might point is about the only weakness they have, off the top of my head - and it's a minor quible.

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"What's so civil about war, anyway?"

Mordor=5. The only thing they suffer from is low courage but this is easily countered with the Dark Marshal (practically every Mordor army has him) or even Sauron himself.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

Mordor is the strongest army in the Wotr game without allies especially the ringwraith and morannon orcs but they have many more the only weakness is that the ringwraiths have only 1 might point and that there is too much choice.

Yeah. Mordor is a solid 5 for sure.

I like the note that one of their only weaknesses is too much choice. Seriously though, you have such a wide range of Heroes and Formations in the basic Mordor pool that you should have no reason what so ever making an army like you want and having it be very competitive.

The Morannon Orc, as plastic models with a terrific defense and strength, are a common core Formation. Since they don't have the issue of 1/3 of the models being archers that get pulled off to another Formation (typical of every other warrior box set I an think of right now), two boxes will get you a 6 Company Formation that, with one or two good Heroes can be a key center of any army.

For cavalry the Warg Riders are cheap (both points and models) and effective and Morgul Knights have to be one of the most dangerous cavalry forces.

Add to this the Troll Chief and a variety of Troll options, some decent siege weapons, cheap hordes (with the Orc rules allowing for greater support die numbers than most other troops) and some decent Legendary Formations.

Nazgul have been discussed ad naseum around here and I think we all know them from both the giving and receiving side. So it's safe to assume most Modor armies will have one or more.

As a whole I think the pool of options available to Mordor is an easy 5 with no major weaknesses ( magic, combat, cavalry, ranged, heroes, etc.). You can of course still build a poor army from them if you want.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Well, IMO. Other than Sauron and the Winged Nazgul, I think the only good legendary formation is Shagrat's tower guard.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

Interesting. To me Sauron always looked pathetic for his large points cost and i havent gotten around to using him yet. It seems he's too easy to kill in combat and especially with epic shots. I would have to spend most the game shielding him and even then radaghast can light of the valar on him without line of sight to inflict auto hits.

If its not too off topic I would like to know what others think of him.

But on Mordor in general, its all been said. 5/5 in both fun (for you not your opponent, lol) and competitiveness. nazguls and morannons are too good and the list has a lot of flexibility

I would have to rate Mordor as a 4 yes they have a great selection and dont really need allies but they also have low courage meaning you have to invest heavily on epics and heroes,also Mordor tends to focus more on a horde army then an elite army.

Sauron is the best hero killer in the game he has a free might each turn and he can make a free epic action each turn so he can do epic strike and a heroic duel for free each turn

And mordor has indeed low courage but with 1 hero with inspiring leader like gothmog you can have much formation with your courage.