First, the problem: archers in the SBG, which individually aren't too dangerous, can gang up against a Def 5 or 6 hero or standard bearer, and reliably bring them down within just a few turns. If the hero had charged out in front of them unprotected, it might not seem so harsh, but even if they're behind protective ranks, they're still unrealistically vulnerable.

My friend has an Orc battle company, where the hero rides a Warg. The extra height makes him easily visible even when behind his Orcs on foot, and it only takes a handful of archers combining fire to kill him before he reaches close combat. It's happened in several battles, and he's been getting pretty annoyed about it.

There's no downside for aiming at the hero - even if they fail the in-the-way roll, they'll hit the warrior in front.

Besides it feeling unfair, it seems to me that your average warrior wouldn't have the tactical acumen to aim past a closer enemy to pick out someone who he might only be able to see a small part of (and might not even know is a hero). For every archer to do it every turn seems broken. However, I wouldn't want to rule out the possibility of a hero taking that shot. I could certainly see Legolas taking it. Or even directing the warriors around him to shoot at it too.

My rule suggestion: warriors are not allowed to shoot past enemy warriors which would be in-the-way, except as part of a Heroic Shot.

This would greatly reduce the abuse I described earlier, and also make the Heroic Shot (which everyone seems to agree is a bit of a waste of a point of Might) quite a bit more useful.

Would be interested to hear people's thoughts.

I don't think it's a problem. If you're shooting at a mass of warriors, the arrow doesn't disappear if it doesn't hit the front target, it keeps traveling. Maybe your friend should try a different tactic, like not fielding a hero on a warg to lead infantry

And that is exactly what happens in real life. The leader /hero on a mount, the standard bearer,Sergent, Lieutenant are bullet magnets. Everyone knows that a leaderless unit might stop or run away.It is easier to make a enemy run away than to kill them all. You know the big orc on the wolf, or dude with the flag is the guy that needs to be first.

I don't know about you, but any upity wagrider hero using me for cover might fall victim to some friendly fire.

I think it would make a good house rule to let another model pick up the standard if the hero is still alive. The figure would have to throwout any equipment the standard model is not allowed.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

There's already a rule like this.

@rok100:
Just don't put your heroes in the front or 2nd rank if you're afraid of losing them.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

When you get to be my age you think you remember a rule but you have to look it up anyway because you can't remember which game the rule is from.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Thanks for the responses. I'm surprised that nobody else has found this a problem. I gave the example of the Warg rider captain, because it's easy to visualise, but I've had the same thing with heroes on foot. It's actually really hard to completely obscure an entire model with other models, without something sticking out. Not to mention (although I should have done) it's pretty time consuming and tedious to have to check line of sight for each individual archer, which isn't always clear anyway.

I think @Oldman Willow makes the best argument (about the heroes being bullet magnets), but I only really accept that if they're in plain sight, not behind the lines.

Is this targetting of heroes with bow fire a tactic a lot of players don't use? I have played against people who always go for Def 4 spearmen or bowmen (for a 5+ wound), but the smart money is on the Def 5/6 heroes. As I say, when they're behind cover, and all your bows concentrate fire on them, that seems like abuse of the rules to me.

Anyway, I'm a firm believer that you should only change rules where you have a specific problem you're trying to resolve, so obviously if this is not a problem for you, I don't suggest you change anything!

There are to ways to resolve a problem in a game with out an arbitrary roll off. You can approach the game as an adventure and fun or as a math problem and a law school exercise. Take Line of sight you can get out a periscope and a laser pointer or you can make an extra in the way test. Some people play a game for fun some people play a system.


That is certainly a legalistic mathematical approach. It is a bit like card counting.You can expect it when you are playing for money.This is supposed to be for fun.

Look at it this way why is the hero cowering in the back? To quote a confederate veteran in the Spanish American War. "Haven't had a horse shot out from under me in 30 years it is still a thrill"

On the other hand, if you know the guy is going to approach the game this way, bait him. Put a nice juicy hero in the back for him to concentrate on and run the archers down with a CV screen. That is what they are there for after all.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Good points, well made. My academic background is indeed mathematical and one of my main gaming interests is in writing and refining rules. Guilty on both parts! That does make me predisposed to trying to find a rules solution to tactics which are effective in-game, but feel wrong, such as this.

The way I play LOTR is by most standards, very precise – we always err on the side of something not being possible (around who can be charged or shot), rather than the usual GW guidance (more tied to WH and 40K) of always allowing as many troops fight as possible. I’ve played both ways, and find the tactical interest much greater this way – the battles are more involved and characterful, and definitely more fun. I’m not sure I’d still be playing after so many years otherwise.

Having said that, I know others play differently and enjoy crashing their forces into each other, rolling lots of dice and seeing who wins (and I don’t mean that to sound patronising to anyone). It’s good that we’ve got a game that allows both kinds of play, and probably many variations between.

I am much more intuitive but I completely agree you have to understand the math in order to write rules or balance a scenario. All to often people write rules to force their style of play on you. Steve Jackson wrote in an article on play balance years ago that if you can charge up hill against a fortified position and win the system is broken. If you bring a knife to a gun fight you should loose. I am glad you brought up 40 K. This is a perfect example. Remember over-watch and smoke grenades.Some one decided that grenades were to complicated and shooting was boring so now instead of fire and movement you can charge up hill with butter knifes against heavy machine guns and win. If it is not broken don't fix it.
Enough said. I like to write rules too. I am working on a Halloween game based on TSBG and Legends of the Old west. I need stats for Harry Potter and Doctor Who plus zombies and wear-wolfs.Where wolfs? No There wofls I am going to call it Plan 9-B from Outer Space.
I enjoined this discussion and I am happy to meet you.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

I think targeting heros, important units, lower defence, etc. units that are behind ranks is a valid and great strategy. I find that even if you have 20-ish archers you will rarely be able to do much damage to a unit behind two ranks. Because first off only about 50% of the shots will hit, then half of that will hit the first rank, half of the next will hit the second rank, and the remaining will hit your hero. So out of 20-ish shots only about 1.5 shots will hit that 'hidden' unit every turn. Say you need a 5+ to wound, that's still only one wound every three turns. factor in fate, and the fact that you'll get into combat with them wuite soon after that....

I think the key is to keep them with at least two in the ways, and if the men up front get killed bolster your line the next turn, don't let him bore through your ranks and get a turn of fire with no in the ways.

Another strategy is to try and have an in the way that is not for a unit of yours, say a piece of terrain.... that way they will be less likely to target the unit as if they fail the in the way they will not hit anything.