Well there was an improvement in the Rohan army. A Will of Iron roll for Pall of Night is mandatory and having extra might is very handy. For Rohan they had 6c of Riders with Banner and Erkenbrand, 6c of Riders with Deorwine and 9c of Militia with Theoden. It was played on a 4x4 map with a hill on each side.

1st Turn was just movement. Mordor turtled with the Siege Bows taking down 1 company of Knights.

2nd Turn Mordor went second and turtled. Pall of Night was resisted on Theoden's formation and passed on Deorwine's. Khamul and the Betrayer hole up in the Morannon Orcs where they expect a calvary charge.
Shoot phase Herioc Shot called by Theoden. The 2-H Orcs are all in range of 9c of Militia and they wipe out 2.5 companies. Siege bows take out 1c of militia.
Herioc Charge by Theoden and is unstoppable (+3 dice rolled) and Erkenbrand called and they are in with 3c of Calvary and a line of Militia. The troll and 2-H Orcs counter-charged. All terror tests passed.
Fight phase Herioc Fight is called by Erkenbrand and Khamul. Evil wins the roll off. The +2 Battle Skill bonus is very noticeable. The Militia had a fight of 7 (5 shared by Theoden and 2 for the Herioc Charge). Versus the 2-H orcs each company of Militia had 8+10+1+3+=22 dice and versus Morannon they had 18 dice. At the end of the phase 51-36 for the good side. No unstoppable charge.

3rd Turn Mordor was against the ropes and went second. Deorwines Riders speed quickly and gained the flank of the Morannon Orcs. Pall of Night cast on both formations of Riders, both failed resisting and could not charge.
Shoot phase Rohan killed a slue of 2-H Orcs while all the Riders killed two Morannan in which one was saved by Khamul. Siege bow wiped out a tray of Riders.
Theoden charged the Orcs and wiped them out completely and put a wound counter on the Troll. Morannon failed to charge.

Turn 4 and onwards the Ringwraiths cast Pall on Night and eventually won. Without the might to resist the spell it was all over. Having all those extra dice due to battle skill kinda made the Troll worth taking. One round he took out 4 Riders on his own. Theoden with Epic Charge was getting a ton of dice so in a sense it made taking more Hero's more cost effective. Also the double the shoot bonus is really noticeable on the calvary side. Instead of Throwing twice they can do so 3 times and the Outriders can throw 7 times or shoot bows 8 times (might be worthwhile as a legitimate archer unit ). Overall quite alot of fun. If Rohan had more might they might of won so next time throw in some captains.

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http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

Very good to see this discussion going on.

I'll add my suggestions to the pot, but for now I'll start small: (These would be suggestions for Slythar's rules)

Fight stat: superior fight, in addition to granting +1 attack, reduces the opponent's attacks by 1. Monsters instead receive double the number of bonus attacks.
Shoot stat: +4" range for bows, +2" thrown weapons (inc. blowpipe) for having shoot better than 4+.

Corsair Arbalesters: Pavise only adds defense against shooting.

Since I am starting to get a little confused, I have edited the OP to reflect two changes I will definitely be using: 1. Glaives get a new combat priority (infantry with glaives strike before other infantry, cavalry with glaives strike before other cavalry). 2. Corsair Arbalester Pavise shield protects only against shooting and spells. I also added a line confirming that you can move any distance and use throwing weapons. This should be a big help to both several Rohan units and Woodelves. In terms of the key goal of promoting a bit of list diversity, does doing this make Woodelves with Glaives seem more attractive? A fast pathfinding stealth unit, that throws a lot of str 3 in before charging, then gets to do further damage before the enemy strikes back - would you take it?

I like the detail from the report, Slythar. I do the same AAR thing myself to gather information from testing. I have one major query from all of that - you made those cavalry Riders, but could they not have easily been Knights? Vs Morranans, from the front, it would have been similar to what you described but twice as lethal at impact. Given you also get higher courage and defense (which often halves the damage you take at long range, and halves it for melee), that seems pretty worthwhile for +10pts more. It's good to see the militia being heavily employed. I rate them quite highly already, and they are even more mean with your boosts to fight value and then Rohan combos.

This discussion about simply lifting fight and shoot (in terms of boosting the number of dice only) is interesting. Do people feel that the boost it gives monsters adequately compensates them for their increased risk to dieing from missile fire? Also, it helps throwing weapons even more than it helps bow - though bow does now have more of a niche if crossbows can never move and shoot.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

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Re: Glabro... I thought of that too regarding to fight but if you have a difference of 4 basically the enemy is will be 3:1 odds... a little stacked. My odds would end up being 2:1 with the +2 per fight bonus. Plus a Monster would be next to impossible to take down in a melee.

Actually I ran the game with the Knights and they got wiped first round, even with the Epic charge in. Khamul just picked on them rightfully so, so I made them all Riders, it was 5c of Knights and 5c of Riders, switched to 6c/6c of Riders. I'm sure the Knights just had bad luck. If an Heroic Fight came in Rohan's favour it might of turned different aswell but I found the Riders pretty effective cost wise (25 points per)

I like what you did with Glaives but since I changed the Battle Skill I left it (but I still need to test it). I also like that you can throw your weapons anytime rule. I'll probably steal that one. I'm a little concerned with Epic Rampage now because now they're alot more dice. Epic Charge is now an awesome action. That's 4 dice per company for that skill. If Terror sets in that can be a game ender. I'll be testing more on Friday, should be fun. I'll keep the Mordor army (that's the measuring stick) and I'll try Elves. I think Elves are going to get lots of dice.

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Ah, I must not have been clear enough....I meant that the rule of reducing attacks worked only for Infantry and Cavalry - monsters do not reduce incoming attacks due to their F (their F represents ferocity and great size, not great bladesmanship) - they would use the "doubled number of bonus dice" rule instead - if needed.

I suggested the above in order to try to balance F with S and D. As we now, currently one point of difference might or might not mean a doubling / halving of the odds. For math purposes, I use the "D12 system" where each point of S or D counts (so even= 7+, +1D=8+, +2D=9+ instead of even=4+, +1D=5+, +2D=5+ etc.)

Anyway, if we take a basic human profile with a shield, and add +2 D to side A and +2F to side B, what happens?

Under your system: A gets 8 attacks, 2.666 kills. B gets 12 attacks, 2 kills.

Under mine: A gets 6 attacks, 2 kills. B gets 10 attacks, 1.6666 kills. D is still better, but not by as much.

Of course, this is just one specific example. But more often than not +2D means a halving of the chances to wound serious infantry units with other infantry units.

However, this rule would mean that companies that suffer casualties facing superior troops quickly become combat ineffective - the same if they're flanked.

Extreme examples like High Elves with Glaives vs. Goblins exist. In this case the goblins would get 3 attacks vs. the elves' 13. That sounds about right for me for a completely outclassed unit fighting one-one-one - and having a similar difference in D / S would mean equally bad or worse odds. It would give elves some survivability, which is important - often even if you outclass your enemy and slaughter them (with the +2 per point of difference mod), you still get badly hurt back unless you're heavily armoured, and might win a only a pyrrhic victory. But that's just how I feel - superior skilled troops would stay alive better, not just slaughter their foes better.

I just added a line stating Inspiring Leader cannot be used to boost courage vs Spirit Grasp.

I had forgotten about it, but is came up in a recent game and it was actually a little embarrassing for such expensive units to be negated so easily. A recent comment on teh blog reminded me, so I've edited in the OP.

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I was thinking of those Ghosts too. You know it wasn't so bad (in fact awesome) when the Court of the Dead King cost was 30 points. Its really what got me into Gondor to begin with. Now its just a ghost of a past army.

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http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

But really, it was obvious they'd made a mistake, and basing your army on a pricing error might not be the most long lasting of choices.

Actually I only spent 2 games using those prices before I found the FAQ and showed it to my friends. (Although I really didn't want to show them since it was my first 2 victories). Just to show ya I'm no cheater although I am a stat whore who's trying (alas House Rules to keep myself honest). Onto...

Battle Report #2 using my House Rules. 800 points match on a 4 x 4 table with no terrain.

Mordor Test Army

Epic Hero's
Khamul
The Betrayer

Common Formations
9c Mordor Orcs with 2-Handed Weapons and a Banner Bearer.
6c Morannon Orcs with Shields and a Banner Bearer.

Rare Formations
1c Siege Bow
1 Troll

Elven Kingdom (I found a 1000 point army on the forums somewhere and reduced it)

Epic Hero's
Galadriel
The Monkey Twins (I stole that. Do they look like monkeys? Its Elladan and Elrohir)

Common Formations
4c Wood Elves with Longbows
3c Wood Elves with Glaives

Rare Formations
4c High Elf Cohort

Round 1, Elves go first and they sit because their long bows are in Range. The High Elf Cohort hide behind the Wood Elves to hide from Mordor's Siege Bow. Mordor cast Wings of Terror on both formations but fail. They move up on the double.

Shoot Phase Galadriel's Wood Elves with Longbows shoot down 13 Mordor Orcs. Their dice total, 48.

Round 2, Elves go first again. Galadriel's formation moves up to be in casting range. She casts Aura of Blind Light, Light of the Valar and spends a might to Transfix Khamul's formation. Elladan's High Elf Cohort and Elrohir's Wood Elves with Glaives move up to be just out of range of Khamul's Essence Leach and form a line. Khamul's Pall of Night counters Aura of Blinding Light. Elladan uses a Might to resist Enfeeble. The Betrayer casts Pall of Night on Galadriel's Longbows which fails to resist and Enfeebles the Cohort. The Siege Bows sees a lane and stays put will the Troll moves up staying out of Line of Fire from the Longbows.

Shoot phase Galadriel calls Herioc Shot and the Longbows kill 8 Mordor Orcs . The Siege Bow can see the Cohort, fires and misses.
In the Charge phase the Cohort fail their charge so the other twin stays put. The Betrayer charges in knowing full well there will be a duel.

Herioc Fight called by the Betrayer and Herioc Duel called by Elrohir and Elladan. Good wins the roll-off. Elrohir cuts thru 3 Morannon Orcs and puts only a wound on The Betrayer. The Herioc Fight continues. Evil focuses their 3c on the Wood elves and they are badly hurt with just over a company remaining. The Cohort take only 3 hits. In the end, Morannon Orcs win 11-16 and the Elves are disordered. The Betrayer chooses to recharge in to finish off Elrohir. In the second duel only an Orc falls. Evil wipes out Elrohir and his Wood Elves and the Cohort lose 3 more. The Morannon's lose their second tray and are 4c strong.

Round 3, Priority is won by Elves who go first. Again Galadriel goes all out and lowers Khamul's courage by -4 and Tranfix's on a 6. This basically takes them out for the round. Elladan is bestowed a might point. With his brother gone he does not want Galadriel to be involved with The Morannon so his Cohorts block them from moving into a chargeable position and saves a lane for the Wood Elves to fire upon Khamul's orc's. The Troll moves into close range of the High-Elf Cohort. The Betrayer is the only caster so he casts Pall of Night on the Cohort.

Shoot phase 1c of Orcs Killed in which Khamul cannot save and the Siege Bow kills 2 Cohort.
Charge Phase, The Morannon Orcs and Troll charge the Cohort.

Fight phase, Elladan revenges his brother by over-killing The Betrayer with 5 rolls on the chart. The Troll takes a wound counter of 2 and each side lost 5 total. Draw.

Round 4, Evil wins Priority and happily goes first. Khamul casts Wings of Terror and moves to within a stone throw of Galadriel and casts Pall of Night upon the archers. The leaderless Morannon move into potential charge range of Galadriel. Might is given to Elladan and moves next to Galadriel. Galadriel Enfeebles the 2-Handed Axe wielding Orcs. Elladan's Wood Elves on the double to get all bow fire on the Orcs and to stay out of the Morannon's charge range. The Cohort ignore the Morannon and focus on the wounded Troll.

Shoot Phase, Siege Bow fires and kills 2. Galadriel calls Herioc Shot, Khamul reflects one back and loses 6 orc's to bow fire.
Charge Phase, the Troll is in and Khamul's 2-H Orcs move into the Wood Elves. No one has failed their courage tests yet and no one will.

Fight Phase, Elladan calls Herioc Duel and sends Khamul to join the Betrayer. The Wood Elves superior fight is showing and all those extra dice are finally evening the numbers on the field. The Orcs lose 3 full companies while the Wood Elves suffer half of that. The Troll is killed but reduces the Cohort to 1.5 companies.

Round 5 and on. The Elves use their superior mobility. The Siege Bow is destroyed next. The Elves stay out of charge range and attack the Orcs from the rear and win with about 4c of Elves plus Elladan and Galadriel.

Conclusion: The amount of dice the Elves got was insane. I'm starting to like the +2 Battle Skill rule. Wood Elves are still weak in melee but they should be. I should of used Epic Defense with them. The Glaives +1 Fight was nice enough without adding more but I would like to re-add the original rule to ignore the second roll for hits. If your Enfeebled, the Elves are in trouble vs. Def 7 units so Glaives vs. Wraiths is nice to have. Plus they take out Siege easier. I was surprised they won honestly. I do think if more rolls went evils way they would of won so in fact I feel it was quite an even match. I might have to rethink the Mordor army really. They need some Might aswell. I think a large scale game would be very interesting. That's all I got for now.

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http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

I updated some House Rules.

All formations are considered to have 1-Handed Weapons.
Glaives: +1 to Fight Value, they pass all secondary rolls on the to-hit chart.
Expert Riders, Skilled Riders: May on the double and shoot.
We Stand Alone: These formations can At the Double as if they had a Hero in it.
Spirit Grasp: Add any Enemy Formation in base contact may not use a Hero's courage value instead of their own.
Hard to Kill, Very Hard to Kill, Extremely Hard to Kill: Cannot achieve a Death Blow from Shooting but instead receive a +3 wound counter.
Rohan, All Legendary Formations Base cost reduced to 75 points.
Treebeard: Ent Charge range of effect increased to 12"

I haven't touched spells yet. I'm unsure how much I want to change at the moment.

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Do you think you might be adding too many house-rules?

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

I just want to be clear at this stage, there is still a short list of houserules in the OP (and on my blog). The list reflects feedback from this thread and is largely composed of a range of suggestions I've culled/adapted from Warseer and One-ring. It is a short one page doc, which adjusts a small number of core rules, rebalances command upgrades, heavy infantry and crossbow, and rebalances the no-brainer Nazgul, Elves and Rohan.

A few people here, in my local group, and on Warseer, use them and find they work well. The aim of the houserules is to 1. adjust a couple of the core rules and 2. to promote a bit more list diversity.

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Define "too many". That is very subjective indeed.

I think the "two versions" approach - one for people who want to play mostly by the book but fix the most obvious gameplay errors, and one for those who want to balance the game to be more playable and exciting - works well.

I agree. I think the situation with WOTR is such that a number of the lists only work if played 'oddly' (I have no trouble doing so, but can see that others like lists because of how they are 'supposed' to work) and some things are far too good, or too poor.

So I see it being played three ways:
1. Always RAW in any event format. despite promoting houserules, I would not consider using them for anything like this. 2. The 'low hanging fruit', I think that this game can be made even better through a small number of changes and there is striking agreement on what most of these changes should be. My own list is probably too long, and I welcome any suggestions for what to strike off. 3. The same type of houserules that exists in every wargame I have ever seen. I don't think anyone posting about these more individual (and why can't they be as long as they like?) versions is derailing things. Eveything from list two comes from either good suggestions from list 3, or even the matches between different people's lists 3.

So I see the list in the OP as the second type of list, not all the changes that possibly could be made, but pretty good and I would recommend it as already tested for anyone who seems to be facing the same old issues with the game . I like to see what others are doing though, and their testing experiences.

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Yes I do, but that's because I'm testing things out. Once I try them out I'm sure I'll drop a few or if I hear a good argument against.

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http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

I tried another round last night. 800 points Gondor vs. Mordor. I had The Tainted on Fellbeast. The cannot be killed by shooting rule is kinda like a security blanket going in. Obviously you have to soften them up abit anyway but this way you won't see your precious Monster go down before he see's the white of their eyes.

I got rid of the Balrogs and Druzag's rules. The Balrogs higher fight plus more attacks and he's the perfect dueler so I think that's enough reason to take him over the Dragon.

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By "too many" I meant that if the rate at which these houserules are being introduced continues then the game will soon cease to be War of the Ring, it will be an altogether different game.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

I would agree, not to mention reading most of this, seems like there are too many opinions on the house rules besides, for now Ill stick with the rules as published with any official FAQ or Errata.

More power to the guys who can keep pace with all this, its just not for me.

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That's fair enough - your group's choice how you play afterall. If it turns out you guys are striking the same issues as many of the rest of us, there is a list in the OP and you don't have to read the entire thread. Most of the discussion that informs this list isn't in this thread, in any case.

I not in-frequently play RAW and it works just fine for some of the lists.

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If I had to sum up the rules and pick 3 then I would

1. Double the Battle Skill modifier
2. Will of Iron roll on 3+
3. Epic Strike: Fight is Base +2

Very helpful for Rohan and Elven armies for the most part.

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