Point Rebalancing Project

Slythar · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2011 1:18 am

I've been thinking about this for awhile and I finally have competed a rough estimate of point values for each unit. I've put a value on every piece of wargear, special rules, attributes etc.,. and come up with a number that at first glance looks balanced. I've yet to try any of it using standard rules of course but after much work I wanted to post some of it. I have the formula's if anyone is interested.

I'll start with Mordor since its the most unbalanced.

Orcs 16
Orcs w/ Shields 23
Orcs w/ Bows 20
Orcs w/2-H 22
Morannon Orcs 29
Morannon Orc w/Shields 36
Orc Trackers 28
Warg Riders 25
Warg Riders w/Shields 28
Warg Riders w/Bows 26
Uruk-Hai 28
Uruk-Hai w/2-H 34
Black Numenorean 37
Morgul Knights 42
Morgul Stalker 34
Black Guard of Barad-Dur 49
War Catapult - Standard (No formula)
Siege Bow Standard (No formula)

Tower Guard 28 w/2-H 34
Legendary Cost 128

Morgul Rats 16 w/Shields 23 w/Bows 20 w/2-H 22
Legendary Cost 95

Grishnakh's Trackers 30
Legendary Cost 66

Castellans of Dol Guldur 107
Twilight Ringwraiths 129
*WIP* The Nine are Abroad 527

Mordor Troll 65
Mordor Troll Drummer 75
Mordor Troll Chieftain 110
Shelob 104
The Necromancer 353
Sauron 504
*WIP* Winged Nazgul, works out about the same as what an Epic Hero is worth +30 points.

The Necromancer 225
Sauron 351
The Witch King 212
Khamul The Easterling 242
The Undying 192
The Tainted 182
The Dark Marshal 182
The Shadow Lord 182
The Dwimmerlaik 192
The Betrayer 232
The Knight of Umbar 192
The Mouth of Sauron 119
Kardush 76
Gollum Standard (No formula)

Ultragreek · **Joined:** Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:03 pm **Posts:** 294

Orc morannon > Uruk hai?
Orc tracker = Uruk hai?
Khamul and Betrayer higher than the Witch king !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

(THat especially is killing me....)

SilverHeimdall · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2011 5:22 am

Are you saying that Witch King is undercosted or that Khamul's overpowered abiliity is overcosted in this 'rebalancing project'?

Slythar · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2011 6:07 am

Orc morannon > Uruk hai? In combat the Morannon should win. Looks good.

Orc tracker = Uruk hai? I priced ambushers pretty low but the Uruk still has a higher Fight,Strength,Defense and Courage. I have Ambushers priced at 5 pts. so maybe I could go higher. I don't really see that much use for Ambushers.

Khamul and Betrayer higher than the Witch king. Themewise it shouldn't be but I would argue they will still be taken over the Witchking. The WK power is not very useful. I priced Shadow of Terror at 5 pts. where as Essence Leech at 80 pts. I went high on Essence Leech but I would argue that it doesn't necessary take him out of the picture when choosing an army. Khamul and the Betrayer can be built into in an army with those qualities in mind in reflecting hits or rerolling misses.

Thanks for the input guys!

Maybe I'll roll a faction every week. The input is invaluable.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2011 2:33 pm

Interesting so far. I like the new points on the various Trolls (Troll Chief may be worth 125). They are just not as worth it now considering the fragility of H2K, though if supporting I have found them very effective.

But for that same reason I'd suggest your point increase on the Necromancer is going the wrong direction. He's only H2K and even with D8/R2 the H2K just gives no staying power. I have taken out Glorfindel ( H2K - D7/R2 ) without much problem in two games. Two turns of combat at best. I'd argue that with D7 or D8 and R2 a VH2K model would be worth 300+ points but it's just not that hard to get one or two hits in and that's often all that's needed.

Slythar · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2011 4:33 pm

My problem with Sauron and The Necromancer is my spell multiplier which is across the board. I'll list my formula. Its a multiplier so Spell Level * spell list * spell List * spell list.
Spells
Level 1 - 20
Level 2 - 30
Level 3 - 35
Level 4-5 - 40
Level 6-8 - 45
Level 9-10 - 50

Darkness x2.2
Ruin x1.8
Dismay x1.5
Wilderness x1.4
Command x1.1

Without the spell multiplier The Necromancer is 115 pts. so maybe its too high in some areas. I'll reduce level 4 to 10 to 35 points, its pretty rare you get to use a spell at those masteries anyways. So now I'm down to 323. I'll take Ruin down to 1.5 and Darkness down to 2. So now I'm at this with Mordor Casters.

The Necromancer 262
Sauron 395
The Witch King 212
Khamul The Easterling 242
The Undying 192
The Tainted 182
The Dark Marshal 182
The Shadow Lord 182
The Dwimmerlaik 192
The Betrayer 232
The Knight of Umbar 192
The Mouth of Sauron 119
Kardush 76

A little better although I'm concerned Kardush is too cheap. He would be easy to kill though. He would be the cheapest caster. I would have to raise Ruin or level cost to get him higher. I don't know, might be fine.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2011 6:21 pm

Instead of adjusting the spells down, what about a modifier based on how hard the model is to kill?

Duels against an Epic or a Hero in a Legendary work pretty much the same (risk wise) as a Duel against a "monster" Hero, so that's not really a factor. But Epics and Heroes in a Legendary Formation are protected to a degree from their Formation itself while Monster-style ( Glorfindel, Necromancer, Shelob, etc. ) are not. If you put Galadriel in a a 4coy large formation of Galadrhim Guard she's going to be hard to damage in normal combat...you need to wipe out 30 models ( deal 30 hits ) before the Formation goes away and she's dead. But if you face an H2K Formation you normally only need to get 2-3 rolls on the chart to score a 6.

As I posted earlier, I nailed Glorfiendel ( D7/R2 ) in one turn of melee with some Morannon Orcs in one game, and took him out in the second turn of melee in another. My Wood Elves have even managed to take down a Mordor Troll ( D7/R2 ) with concentrated bow fire from two companies in one turn. If someone happens to have Legolas around to make them an R1 instead then it's even less of an issue. One Formation of such archers could easily roll 30 dice, expect 18-20 hits. I don't have the time to math out all the *(1/6) but it's pretty reasonable to say you're going to score some 6's out of those 20, and not too hard to have a 4+ on the second roll. Even after R2 is taken into account 1-2 rolls on the H2K table from a volley of archers is reasonable and this means one to two turns against such a Formation and your 300+ point Mastery 5 model is gone, possibly before getting off more than one turn of spells.

Winged Nazgul are not taken often for the same reason (unless you have enough for the Battle Host). So if you had a modifier of -XX% if a VH2K model (WK on FB) and -YY% for an H2K model ( Necromancer, Nazgul on FB ) it may turn the Necromancer down to about 225 - 250 due to his vulnerability. That would be a value I'd be more inclined to play and I don't think he would be overpowering.

Slythar · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2011 7:46 pm

I do have a modifier for Hard to Kill, Very Hard to Kill and Extremely Hard to Kill thats applied to the unit total. Seems the trolls are good where they are. I gave Hard to Kill one because it averages 6 hits to kill so its like a company and so on for VHTK and RHTK.

Hard to Kill 1
Very Hard to Kill 1.2
Ridiculious HTK 2

Maybe a further modifier for monster casters so I could add a 0.75 modifier for that. That seems reasonable just for spells. I made a similar statline for Might where monsters were costed 5 pts per might (since they can be dueled right) vs. 20 points per might for hero's. It will be across the board. Here's the results.

The Necromancer 225
Sauron 351

Ultragreek · **Joined:** Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:03 pm **Posts:** 294

We are pretty lucky you wasn't a creator of WOTR....

Slythar · **Posted:** Mon May 30, 2011 5:56 am

Onto the next group Isengard

Uruk-Hai w/Pikes 35
Uruk-Hai w/ Shields 38
Uruk-Hai w/Crossbows 52
Uruk-Hai Scouts 29
Uruk-Hai Scouts w/Shields 36
Uruk-Hai Scouts w/Bows 33
Orcs 16
Orcs w/Shields 23
Orcs w/Bows 19
Orcs w/2-H 22
Uruk-Hai Sappers 36
Feral Uruk-Hai 42
Warg Riders 25
Warg Riders w/Shields 28
Warg Riders w/Bows 26
Dundlendings w/2-H 32
Dundlendings w/Shields 33
Dundlendings w/Bows 30
Wild Men of Dunland 26
Uruk-Hai Berserkers 98
Sharkey's Ruffians 15
Isengard Troll 69
Isengard Troll Captain 96
Dundlending Horsemen 24
Assault Ballista No Formula
Ugluk's Raiders 36
Ugluk 78
Vrashku's Talons 52
Vrashku 76
Sharku's Hunters 27
Sharku's Hunters w/Shields 30
Sharku's Hunters w/Bows 28
Sharku 71
Mauhur's Marauders 42
Mauhur 75
Thrydan Wolfsbane 100
Saruman 227
Lurtz 170
Grima Wormtongue No formula

BlackMist · **Posted:** Mon May 30, 2011 1:53 pm

Wow, seriously? The good thing about WotR is that you can remember the points costs of every company in your army pretty much after the 1st or 2nd game. With this points system you'd be looking at the rulebook nonstop when writing the list and you'd be needing a calculator with you, while at the moment you can just make a list in your head 5 minutes before the game. You don't want to extend the armybuilding time in a game where already tons of people are complaining that it takes hours to set up and then to play. At least round it all up to 5s and 10s.

Killerkatanas · **Joined:** Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:52 am **Posts:** 182

Well I appreciate your hard work. The points are not balanced in the book, and I would like to see more of that.

I play Isengard a lot, and the price of the crossbows--does that take into account that you cannot fire and move? From my games, the only real good way to use them is to have two units of them and leepfrog them, otherwise they are not very effective, and it is difficult to get a shot off unless you are defending.

Brian

Slythar · **Posted:** Mon May 30, 2011 10:24 pm

Quote:

Wow, seriously?

I know, I know. I agree completely about making it easy to count. Initially I was going to make the points higher but I didn't want to think too much when converting the numbers to multiples of 5 so I left it just as a reference point. Honestly I hardly ever play house rules since I do like to play the game as it is, especially since I play about once every two weeks. If someone wants to take these numbers as a starting point for their own points system that would be great too.

Quote:

price of the crossbows

No I didn't factor that in, just the raw strength.

Ranged- Once range is factored into the cost, the shoot bonus adds 1pt per bonus if there is a bonus at all otherwise its ignored.
Shortbow 2pts
Bow 3pts
Longbow 4pts
Blowpipes 1pts
Thrown 3pts
Crossbow 20pts
Horsebow 1pt
Horsethrown 1pt

Other archer units to compare
Wood Elves w/Longbows 40
Archers of Minas Tirith 29
Citadel G with Longbows 37
Sharkey's Ruffians 15
Goblins with Shortbows 24

Killerkatanas · **Joined:** Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:52 am **Posts:** 182

The range of the longbow, and the fact that they can move and shoot, is a huge advantage that crossbows do not have.

That 40-point Elf longbow is going to be able to move half and fire at a range that is greater than the crossbow's. Furthermore, a good player will stay just out of the crossbow's range with their longbows and shoot, meaning that the crossbows have to advance (and thus no shot).

Brian

Slythar · **Posted:** Tue May 31, 2011 1:33 am

The point range of a crossbow is up for discussion for sure since only two units use it. I could make it more linear and have bows/lb/cb at 3/6/12 points.

So it would be
Uruk-Hai w/Crossbows 44
Wood Elves w/Longbows 42
High Elves w/Longbows 47
CG with Longbows 39
Archers of Minas Tirith 29
Sharkey's Ruffians 15
Goblins with Shortbows 24

Looks more even. Crossbows even with shorter range should still cost twice that of a longbow in regards to equipment. Longbows>Crossbows one on one but Crossbows vs. Infantry/Monsters/Cavalry > Longbows vs Infantry/Monsters/Cavalry.

In terms of 'Most Deadliest Warrior'... the Edge goes to the Uruk-Hai Crossbow.

Hashut's Blessing · **Joined:** Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:41 pm **Posts:** 1279

If the numbers put you off because of complexity, once the numbers are all sorted (for the balancing), multiply everything by 5 and the numbers are suddenly easier again.

Slythar · **Posted:** Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:48 pm

Enough of Isengard, simple enough. Lets move on to Moria.

Goblins 22
Goblins with Shields 29
Goblins with Shortbows 24
Wargs 24
Giant Spiders 35
Prowlers 35
Bat Swarm 33
Spider Broodlings 30
Gundabad Blackshields 41
Spider Queen 63
Cave Troll 52
Stone Giant 179
Cave Drake 92
Dragon 340
Dragon with Magic 431
Balrog 321
Durburz 146
Druzhag 226

Slythar · **Posted:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:29 pm

FALLEN REALMS
Haradrim 25
Haradrim with Bows 29
Haradrim Raider 29
Haradrim Raider with Bow 31
Serpant Guard 27
Serpent Rider 31
Serpent Rider with Bow 33
Corsair 16
Corsair with Shield 23
Corsair with Bow 20
Khandish with 2-H 31
Khandish with Bow 29
Khandish Raider 25
Easterling 33
Easterling with Pike 36
Easterling with Bow 30
Easterling Kataphrakt 32

Watchers 32
Watchers with Bows 37
Half Trolls 69
Half Trolls with 2-H 78
Mahud 27
Mahud with Blowpipes 30
Mahud Raider 21
Mahud Raider with Blowpipes 24
Corsair Arbalesters 41
Black Numenoreans 37
Morgul Knights 44

Abrakhan Guard 25
----------Legendary Cost 91

Khandish Charioteer 45
Khandish King 71
Mumak 207

Suladan 143
Dalamyr 117
Amdur 190
Queen Beruthiel 113

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

Druzhag costs more than Mumak ... I think you don;t know how good mumak is...

Slythar · **Posted:** Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:23 am

My RHTK ratio is too low I think. I'll bump that up. Also I costed Druzag's ability to summon creatures at 3c of Wargs. Maybe thats too high since he might not always summon.

The most mighty of the RHTK monsters is the Dragon with Magic. Should I cap him to 500 points? Is he worth 500 points you think? Here is the adjusted values.

Stone Giant 203
Dragon 385
Dragon with Magic 487
Balrog 362
Mumak 234

Druzhag 184

Point Rebalancing Project

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