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 Post subject: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:48 am 
Elven Warrior
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the misty mountains list is realy overpowerd because:

moria prowlers are only 20 points and common, have two handed weapons, prowlers,poisoned weapons and mob rule?! :shock: so if you us them as flanking troops it would be a to cheap killing machine.

Gaint spiders are the same cost as kataphrakts or royal knights and have pathfinders(master), prowlers, poisoned bite, strenght 5 and movement 12, so you can easely walk along the board edge and rear-charge your opponent, killing enough enemies so they can't strike back well

getting cloud of bats rear-charging your opponent so they won't take to much hits and causing terror they are epic

lots of monsters

gundabad blackshields are only 20 points and have strenght 4, shields, mob rule and ancient enemy making them a good shield formation

druzhag is only 100 points, can flee with epic cowardice, has inspiring leader for some animals that don't have realy good courage, has magic and can summon troops.
summon beasts can normaly bring with 3 mightpoints 6 companies on table, even in the enemy's back, and if you choose spiders the normal cost of the troops you summon would be 35X6=210!!!!! double the cost of druzhag if you use all?!
that's why i think the misty mountains is overpowerd

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:22 pm 
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On the plus side, most players will go insane painting enough goblins for a 2000 point army. 8)

Seriously though, I think it is a good selection for an army and I wouldn't say it's overpowered. There are not many loop holes, exploits or power-game combos in a Moria force compared to Mordor, for example. You have to ally those in. :lol: A well build Moria list, well played, would be a challenging army and I think that's exactly as it should be.

The available Monsters are effective but are also very expensive in points (and real money) (unlike a Mumuk which I believe is pretty underpriced). It has only a small selection of Epics which complement the army nice but are not underpriced / overpowered (Druzag is great but even a Captain has a good chance of taking him out on a Duel). The core troops are reasonable, unless someone decides to proxy their entire army as Blackshields or Prowlers.

I agree that the Giant Spiders are great cavalry no doubt but D3 is pretty susceptible, even to the weakened bow fire in WotR. Still these are some of my favorite Evil forces and another reason I enjoy my Dol Guldur force (allying these in). Several Formations, 2-3 Companies large, zipping around the flanks can really give your opponent something to worry about. You may not survive a second turn but you could do major damage on the turn you do hit.

Don’t forget the Spider Broodlings either. Though only D1 in melee (squish!) they’re Ambush combined with other special rules makes them a great little surprise to spring mid to late game and it’s very easy for your enemy to forget all about them after you initially told him you have a couple Companies of them in Ambush since they are just not a very attention-getting unit.

Druzag has proven my biggest PITA with this army. My opponent has been very good about popping his free units (usually Wargs but sometimes Spiders) behind my Formations and getting off some crippling charges. But the spells of Ruin have been just as bad.

I have faced Moria with my Wood Elves at 1000, 1500 and 2000 point levels. I have won each game though I'm finding as the points increase it's getting harder to do so. Some of the more potent monsters can be brought in and the number advantage increased significantly. My opponent, who has been playing Moria-based armies since ever getting into SBG before I did, is good with their strong and weak points and is a solid builder and player. I have an incomplete BR (pics are up but I never finished the narrative) from a pretty large game I played against a solid Moria force back in March. It included about 18 Companies of Goblins, Balrog, Druzag, Spider Queen and Spiders.

http://tac-me.net/index.php/battlereportslotr/lotrbattlereportswotr/74-br-wotr-26mar11

My opponent “babyed” his Spiders a lot, fearing all my bow fire against their D3, so they weren’t too much of a threat, and with Legolas in my army the Cave Trolls were more of a distraction than anything else (they would have done better kept in reserve and coming up behind the main force I think). He also fielded the Goblins with Shaman and Drummer to really get their speed going, but due to the Formation sizes found himself limited in his move options a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:25 pm 
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What you are failing to take into account is the pitiful Def of most of the MM units. Particularly the Prowlers and Giant Spiders are Def 3. In WotR Defense is critical, yeah they CAN hit really hard, if you get a flank charge off, but they die in droves and if the opponent is paying attention he can put things in the way so you don't get that flank. Also, remember that to maximize the odds of maneuvering around to the flank, the formation needs to be smaller, and so even easier to kill. I tried running a big block of prowlers for a while and NEVER got to hit a flank with them because they are just too unwieldy.

The Bats are even worse, Def 2!!! I don't even take bats because they die to a stiff breeze, and most armies are going to be able to pass terror tests unless you specialize in courage reduction, which MM can't do very well.

Blackshields are a nice choice, no doubt, but they compare to Morannon Orcs who are also 20 points. The goblins are faster and slightly more courageous (WTF?) but have a worse defense and fight, so that seems like a pretty fair trade. Add in the goblin's special rules and they seem good, maybe even very good, but not overpowered.

As has been mentioned, the big monsters are great, but immensely expensive (although I think the giant is a good deal).

Druzhag can be crazy overpowered in low point games, but the bigger the game, the less critical the summoning is, and remember, the Epic Cowardice only has a 50/50 chance of getting him out of a duel since he would have to roll off to see who calls the action first, and even if he does flee, that is one less might available to summon spiders.
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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:37 pm 
Elven Warrior
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okay, thanks for your reactions

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:19 pm 
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Don't think we were trying to downplay your concern. Misty Mountain is a potent army list for WotR. I really like it, in fact, and wish I already had a decent force from SBG so that it wouldn't be such an investment to get going with. You can build a balanced army with a good variety of forces and tactics, and if you play it with skill then you can do well. But I personally think that's how every army should be.

"Overpowered" in discussions here usually means that the army has some key under priced forces, or some over-enabled combos, or both. The Nazgul are one of the biggest offenders and you always see them pollute Mordor lists, but there are others.

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:17 pm 
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He is on to something. While a lot of those things he lists aren't actually that good. The combo of Blackshields, Druzhag (no one actually puts Durbuurz in with Blackshields or Druzhag at least?) and Spiders is very efficient and is well known to be so.

Forgottenlore, I'd call your comparison to Morranans 'cheeky' :) Morranons would be the best deal for infantry in the game. They would be bought with Shields so that ordinary troops would be hitting them on 6s rather than 5s. So a good 25pt troop with str4 and a low courage that will not matter because you want to put one of the numerous Mordor courage 5 heroes in every unit where it will matter. Equivalent troops in other lists are WOMT (also an exceedingly good deal).... and then 30-35pt+ heavy inf from other lists. Vs the most common str 3, Gundabad Blackshields are 5 pts cheaper than the best infantry in the game and are just as good, for all practical purposes. They are far and away a better deal than the likes of Uruks w shields which cost almost twice as much but STILL are worth buying.

Gundabad Blackshields are the best example of what you get when you allow a kid in the design studio to design a troop type using a system where stats that don't practically matter are given equal weight to stats that do. In fact, you omitted the real comparison, why would we buy Orcs/Goblins with shields again? :P

So mastermanje, you have a fair point but I think you took it a little too far.

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:47 pm 
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Xelee wrote:
Forgottenlore, I'd call your comparison to Morranans 'cheeky' :)


Not sure what you mean by that, but Morannons were the first thing I thought of when trying to think of a different unit that might be similar stat-wise, and low and behold they were so I compared them. Not sure what the rest of the paragraph is arguing since, as you say, the Morannon's lower Courage is almost guaranteed to be offset by a hero, meaning (compared to Blackshields) they trade away a point in a largely meaningless stat for a gain in the most important stat in the game. Which seems to be what you are arguing, except that means the Blackshields are not as good a the Moranons, which sounded like the opposite conclusion to what you were saying.

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In fact, you omitted the real comparison, why would we buy Orcs/Goblins with shields again? :P


Very true, and as you may remember from other thread, I am a very vocal advocate of never taking basic moria goblins, I simply don't see any reason to do so, (unless you just happen to have 15 points left over and want to buy a single company speed bump), but the issue under discussion was how the good MM formations stack up against formations in other army lists, not the relative internal balance among the MM formations, so I didn't mention it.

I'm not saying Blackshields aren't a really good choice, they are, just that they are not massively, exceptionally powerful when compared to the good bargains in other armies.
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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Well, if you take only selected parts of what I post, of course its going to be inconsistent! Cheeky just refers to the fact that comparing Blackshields to the other very good deal for infantry understates how good a deal Blackshields are compared to the majority of infantry out there. My comparision to Orcs with shields is not just about balance internal to the MM list. The reality is, those Blackshields are just better Orcs with shields, same cost but heaps better. The Isengard, Angmar and Mordor lists also have Orcs with shields - so they are a pretty good baseline.

The OP doesn't have to be right that Blackshields are "massively exceptionally powerful" to still be on to something.

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:06 am 
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I think a lot of lists have one or possibly two exceptional units. That doesn't make the army as a whole "overpowered" though and I think that's what the list was discussing. Yes, Blackshields are a great bargain (and a mistake IMHO). And if a player wants to play an entire army with all of their regular Goblins proxied as Blackshields it will be a bit cheezy. But as a whole, I don't think MM has the same inherit problems as Mordor has.

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:52 am 
Elven Warrior
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Now that I look at the MM list - I am warming to the OP's theme. They are almost like a list of normal units (common to many evil lists) with something extra dropped on top for free. So Goblins are Orcs with the free bonus of Prowlers and Pathfinders. Prowlers are 2HW Orcs with the free bonus of Pathfinders and Prowlers. Blackshields are Orcs with shields with the free bonus of Prowlers and Pathfinders AND + 1 str, def & Courage. Druzhag is like a normal caster an awesome special ability. Durbuurz is even cooler in that putting him in there (assuming you aren't just inclined to do him AND the Beastcaller) solves a lot of issues that Goblins otherwise have.

And they have a spellcasting Dragon, how cool is that?

Wargs are a good deal for 20pts and, given how inexpensive and good the infantry screen is, Giant Spiders are excellent for their cost with the added bonus that they even tell you not to be wasteful and try smashing Cav into the front of enemy units. The one glaring omission is the Wraiths but hey, 125pts seems suspiciously perfect for fitting into the allies allotment at most commonly played points levels.

But yes, easy to over-egg the argument. Sure there are a lot of free bonuses but someone still has to play the list. It will not win by itself. :)

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Last edited by Xelee on Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:24 pm 
Elven Warrior
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okay, thanx for the reactions, and now i know the MM isn't overpowered

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:06 pm 
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mastermanje wrote:
okay, thanx for the reactions, and now i know the MM isn't overpowered


now that is an opinion not a fact.

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:45 pm 
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Yeah it depends on the person's way of thinking... 8)
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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:06 pm 
Elven Warrior
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yeah, i didn't tought of that

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Beowulf03809 wrote:
I think a lot of lists have one or possibly two exceptional units. That doesn't make the army as a whole "overpowered" though and I think that's what the list was discussing. Yes, Blackshields are a great bargain (and a mistake IMHO). And if a player wants to play an entire army with all of their regular Goblins proxied as Blackshields it will be a bit cheezy. But as a whole, I don't think MM has the same inherit problems as Mordor has.


This is why our group will not allow proxies, either spend the money on the metal or you have to convert them, stops the cheese kiddies in their tracks. :-D
A funny twist on this, one of our group got a game in a GW shop, his Isengard v MM.

"All these unpainted Goblins are Blackshields"
"If they are Blackshields why are they unpainted Goblins"
"I'm using them as proxies"
"I'm going for a coffee, be back in 15mins, have a think about just what a Dick you being"

15 minutes later

"Are they still Blackshields?"
Yes"
"OK, all these pike blocks are crossbows, those Uruk-hai with shields are crossbows, that shaman is Kardush, that captain figure is Khamul, that one is the Betrayer, and those orc bow are Arbelesters" 8)

Not a good day for the gobbos, but a few people in the store thought it very amusing.
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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:10 pm 
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:lol: That gave me a good laugh 8)

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:02 pm 
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8) Exactly!

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:17 pm 
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catdubh wrote:
Beowulf03809 wrote:
I think a lot of lists have one or possibly two exceptional units. That doesn't make the army as a whole "overpowered" though and I think that's what the list was discussing. Yes, Blackshields are a great bargain (and a mistake IMHO). And if a player wants to play an entire army with all of their regular Goblins proxied as Blackshields it will be a bit cheezy. But as a whole, I don't think MM has the same inherit problems as Mordor has.


This is why our group will not allow proxies, either spend the money on the metal or you have to convert them, stops the cheese kiddies in their tracks. :-D
A funny twist on this, one of our group got a game in a GW shop, his Isengard v MM.

"All these unpainted Goblins are Blackshields"
"If they are Blackshields why are they unpainted Goblins"
"I'm using them as proxies"
"I'm going for a coffee, be back in 15mins, have a think about just what a Dick you being"

15 minutes later

"Are they still Blackshields?"
Yes"
"OK, all these pike blocks are crossbows, those Uruk-hai with shields are crossbows, that shaman is Kardush, that captain figure is Khamul, that one is the Betrayer, and those orc bow are Arbelesters" 8)

Not a good day for the gobbos, but a few people in the store thought it very amusing.

8)
Though I fear you've let the cat out of the bag with Uruks - it's an easy conversion!

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Our local player with the largest Isengard force in our group did do some good conversions along these lines. He also recently converted a whole box of Corsairs into Arablasters. Used some extra crossbows from other kits but mostly just made the crossbows and shields out of plasticard and GS. He's a very fine sculptor (even had a personal creation recently purchased by a company and turned into a production model for them) but even these looked to be pretty basic conversion. Similarly I'm taking a box of plastic WEs and doing some work to make many of them into Sentinels.

Likewise with Blackshields and Prowlers. The conversion work is so basic that if you don't at least go thru that effort then you deserve to have the tables turned on you. :) We have no problem with proxies for a game or two while you try to find out if something is as worth it as you hope, but don't push it.

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 Post subject: Re: misty mountains are overpowerd!!!!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:25 pm 
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Xelee wrote:
8)
Though I fear you've let the cat out of the bag with Uruks - it's an easy conversion!


Yes. I have 20 pikemen with broken pikes happily converted to crossbowmen using metal crossbows (20 for £2.50 from gripping beast, I may even have seen the original idea on this forum), and another 40 in the pipeline...

Mys son uses MM a lot, even without blackshields or spiders, you can have an effective army with just goblins, trolls, and some bigger monsters. Theya rent overpowered, you just play to their strengths. The goblin hordes just soak up damage, 2-3 companies lost means little and sheer weight of numbers can be daunting. Add in the Battlehost and Durburz's spawning formations and you have an army that is hard to defend against. Hard not overpowered in this configuration...

However, I took a 1500 point Isengard army against a 1500 point MM, with Durburz, The Balrog and the Dragon and a Stone Giant... I held my own, but i think only lucky sapper strikes against two of the extremely Hard to kill monsters kept me at parity. And one time I took a 2000 MM against a Gondor/rohan alliance... The goblins were dying in swathes for 2-3 turns, but once the drake, giant and Balrog crested the hills behind them the battle turned decisively. Goblins are useful cheap cannon fodder and cant be ignored either by an opponent At the Double and move 9 9with a drum) takes them to 18 inches aturn potentially, and they ignore defensive terrain slowing... no you cant ignore a horde of goblins.

So in short, the larger the list, the tougher MM becomes. But even so, I wouldnt say overpowered. :)

Sooo....

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