To kill a troll

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

As has been said, when a formation is attacking a monster only one company can fight directly, the entire formation is still attacking the monster though so it is one company fighting directly and however many supporting companies.

Can't imagine where someone would get the idea that the miniature stays on the battlefield after it is dead though.

D0Cdeath, something you said above put me in mind of another thread (over on warseer, I think) where someone was having trouble killing monsters. In that thread we eventually figured out that he didn't understand how casualties are removed and was removing casualties from the company that was in contact with the monster, not from the rear, so the monster would strike first, kill off the whole company that was in contact with it and he wouldn't have anyone left to strike back. I don't know if you are operating under the same misunderstanding, but your comment to gothmog above made me think of it. If that is what you are doing, that is wrong. Check the "Removing Casualties" section on page 49. Basically, even if the troll manages to kill an entire company of your 6 company block of WoMT, you still have 13+ dice left to fight him back.

Hashut's Blessing · **Joined:** Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:41 pm **Posts:** 1279

You always remove dead models. Nothing in the rules even implies otherwise. Even in 40k, it's only vehicles.

Also, nothing implies in any way that you get no supporting attacks against them - there is a note saying that because of their base shape, only one company can directly fight them at a time.

To be honest, I doubt this opponent is just lacking in rules knowledge, it sounds like he's actively trying to make the game better for him/herself. Keep an eye out for any changes in the rules that he's saying.

dead models get taken away. You get supporting attacks as usual (A formation of 5 companies of WoMT would have 8 direct attacks, plus 4 supporting attacks, plus any from charging and any Fight value difference [although you'd have had to modify Fight and/or have a Hero).

D0Cdeath · **Posted:** Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:39 pm

perhaps using Haldir as an ally with his epic shot would be good , wow that guys cheap!.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:56 pm

Yes, he's undercosted and yes he's a good idea, likewise if you were evil, employ Lurtz.

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

Haldir for Good and Lurtz for evil is a good idea... Watch the person because he may cheats on you...

Wah Wing · **Posted:** Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:46 am

For SBG, if the Mumakil is slain, the model is replaced with "difficult ground" but as this is War of the Ring, I'm not sure that rule still stands.
If it's a troll, you can picture a formation easily walking over or around the dead body. It's removed for the efficiency of the game, I suppose.
Hope this is of some use.

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

Mumakil is removed in Wotr... Yes there are slain troll models that you can buy but they are just for 'show'.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:54 pm

Hilbert is correct, you always remove the model completely.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:59 pm

Sadly it does seem as if your opponent is either very unfamiliar with the rules or is else purposefully trying to deceive you to win. Just ask for him to show you the reference pages in the rules but do it politely. If he's unfamiliar he will stumble around for a while and eventually apologize. If he's cheating his reactions can cover a pretty wide range of possibilities but will probably involve some anger or rudeness for being called out and I doubt he'd even put in the time to discuss it with you.

All that aside, Hard To Kill monsters are pretty easy to take down, especially if you're only facing one or two in a game. You only need to score a 6 on the H2K table and that can sometimes be done on the second or third wound roll ( 4 or 6 hits ). I've had more than my fair share of games where the first roll gets a wound counter ( +1 to next roll ) and the next die is a five or six. Dead (and removed). This has been both attacking and being attacked by H2K models.

A VH2K is a bit more of a challenge but usually just adds another turn to it's demise. Such models can only be used with success if you are careful to protect them until they are engaged and then you need to be sure the enemy can't focus too much attention on them. For example, have several possible models or else other formations that your enemy is as threatened by or more so. We had a game with three Mumuks on our side and the Dwarf opponents had to keep all their balistae and most of their archer fire targeting the Mumuks for most of the game. In doing so our Troll Chief and hordes of Orcs and Fallen Realms only faced the melee battles until near the end. When I've played a few Trolls in a single army it's similar. The Trolls may die relatively early if focused on but the troops get that much closer without threat. Or if the troops are attacked the Trolls can get into the mix easier.

If you're Good and your opponent is fielding a lot of monsters then just bring in Legolas. Having him drop the resilience of the Troll to a 1 means every hit is a roll on the table. It will NOT last long. And if you are really having an issue you can use his special rule and then follow up with his special shot to score automatic hits. By himself he can remove a Troll (sometimes even a Troll Chief) in one turn from a distance like this and a large enough formation of archers can even do significant damage to a Mumuk or Dragon if Legolas is there to drop the R in advance.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:35 pm

Tes I would have to agree with Beowulf, I used Gulavhjatr a few weeks ago and he fought against I think 5 companies of dwarves with two-handed weapons. In the first turn or combat Gully killed lots of dwarves and took a couple of wounds. In the second turn, he killed a few more and was then killed himself.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:07 pm

What are these H2K and VH2K models best for then if they are easy to kill? What is the best way to use them?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:10 pm

Both H2K & VH2K models should be protected, attck in flanks or rear with support from other monsters are formations of infantry.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:15 pm

Agreed!

Usage One: Supporting Hammer

If you only have one, or maybe two H2K/VH2K models in your force you probably want to keep them alive as long as you can, use them effectively and get your points worth out of them. This is how I’m playing these most of the time. Think of it as a variation of a typical hammer/anvil but here you have a hammer in your back pocket.

At this stage I’m getting pretty good about protecting my H2K models early. For one, they almost never have the ability to ATD, so they are already probably in the second rank of your charging force anyway. As such they can’t be targeted very easily early. When your front ranks hit, the smaller base size allows them to move up between the Infantry formations and maybe get a Flank charge on an enemy already engaged. This can really hurt your opponent’s Formation. They are especially devastating if your opponent charges you with Cavalry and you can counter charge those Cav with a Monster. You strike first, Cav are often softer and you may rob a lot of his punch. Your enemy will want to get rid of these models but as long as you don’t feed them to him on a silver spoon you can make it hard enough for him to do so that these models can be a factor for much of the game or your opponent will need to divert enough attention to eliminating them that you can leverage the distraction against him.

Having played Treebeard a couple times I have to say that having a VH2K model that is also an Ambusher is fantastic. There are usually many terrain features on the board that can hold a single Company for Ambush purposes. This automatically protects your model from early threat and often allows you to spring it on the flank or rear of your enemy forces. I am looking forward to adding my Shelob-profile Spider Queen to my Dol Guldur army for similar purposes.

Usage Two: Grenade!

Also, consider using them just as an initial punch that you accept the loss of. In modern terms, an explosive tossed at an enemy to disrupt or soften him up with the idea that the weapon is lost in the process. Think of the film version of the breaking of the gates of Minas Tirith. The doors smash down and a few Trolls burst through. A couple die quick and early and the others smash enough of the defenders away to allow the bulk of the army to rush in. Likewise if you have a couple H2K models on your point you may be able to use them to smash up one key opponent formation early. They generally can’t be dueled so the Formations are forced to fight. And the Monsters strike first and can only be attacked back by a single Company (supported) so they can do a lot of damage. They have a relatively small base size that can often allow them to slip onto a Flank charge, but even head on they usually have a high enough Strength to damage most troops pretty easily. They cause Terror for the most part so if you play your cards (or spells) right and the dice treat you well you may even be scoring extra attacks from a failed Terror test.

If you can combine that with a Formation of normal warriors that have a Hero to call Heroic Combat this initial hit can be devastating. The Trolls + warriors have a great chance of winning the Fight and you will very likely face a disordered Formation on your second charge. Alternatively a Troll Chief and two Trolls can do the same thing, perhaps even better. You risk introducing an Heroic Duel if you do this so it’s situational. The advantages of a Troll Chief over the warriors+Captain setup are the Monster base size (only 1 Company retaliation), the Troll Chief has an excellent Fight if anyone does want to Duel it (or you want to Duel something weak), you can call a Troll Charge if you are worried about getting your charge in first and come one…three Trolls…it’s going to look cool!

Consider these Trolls and the lead Formation with the generic Captain (or the Troll Chief option) as disposable though. They may survive the first turn and hit another Formation hard on the second turn, but probably won’t make it past that. But the damage they do to your enemy’s vanguard may make a major difference in the outcome of the game. Your lead units now have a much softer engagement point and you may have disrupted your opponent’s early-game strategy in the process.

Ok…so that’s a rather long-winded answer. Sorry. These models are a really double-edged sword in WotR. In the books and films I really like these kinds of forces and they could be a good choice in SBG. So in WotR I really want to make them work as a user, but I also don't fear them much as an opponent. Lots of damage potential but the H2K table is a major variability that can’t be ignored. You may not get your points worth out of them if you are just looking at what you destroy vs. the loss of the model ( a Troll would need to kill 4-5 Companies of most common Infantry to break even ). But you may find that they more than pay for themselves from a tactical perspective for the intangible benefits of game flow. But if you’re not careful you may also just throw 200 – 300 points down the drain.

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Quote:

Having played Treebeard a couple times I have to say that having a VH2K model that is also an Ambusher is fantastic. There are usually many terrain features on the board that can hold a single Company for Ambush purposes. This automatically protects your model from early threat and often allows you to spring it on the flank or rear of your enemy forces. I am looking forward to adding my Shelob-profile Spider Queen to my Dol Guldur army for similar purposes.

Just plain old "Hard to Kill" is much better in an ambusher as well. I have used Shelob quite a few times and she always does MUCH better than any trolls do.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:56 pm

I agree, I have found the same with Buhrdur comapred to Gulavhar.

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

Ambusher is very useful if used right

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:46 pm

Hilbert wrote:

Ambusher is very useful if used right

But if used wrong... :roll:

Had a big game a couple months ago with a few of us playing each side. Opponent’s team was all Dwarves. My side was Mordor / Fallen Realms. One of my teammates had control of our Watchers of Karna formation and put it in Ambush well behind the enemy lines, near the objective zone. After we broke through the front ranks and the rear guard of Dwarves (including all the major Epics) moved up a bit to meet us in the last 1/3 of the table my friend decided it was a good time to spring the Watchers ambush and start shooting them in the rear. Oops…he didn’t notice our list didn’t pay for the bow upgrade on the Watchers. Also, he mistakenly placed them outside of the defensible terrain when he revealed them, so they were charged and slaughtered in the open. :oops:

Love Ambush options. But being sure you plan HOW you’re going to use them is very important, and picking the right time to reveal them is one of the hardest decisions you may make during a game.

IM A ENT!!! · **Posted:** Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:32 pm

Hilbert wrote:

In Wotr they made the monsters and archers and even cavalry less effective

I disagree strongly archers dont have to roll to hit in wotr, meaning all dice straight to wounding, and cavalry on the charge are very powerful, few infantry formation will be able to hit back as hard, and trolls well they still get their three attacks(like SBG) and extra for bonus fight etc. If anything I think they made the troop types more realistic and stronger.

Also am i correct when i say that cavalry get the 6+ die on the charge even agaisnt monsters( not flying) i have WOTR book but im not sure if it makes sense, also whats with norm monsters only get +1 die on the charge thats what bothers me about wotr if anything.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:12 pm

What would you say are the better trolls in the game? Just perusing the stats, it looks like the Isengard trolls have the best stat line, opinions?

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:43 pm

TBH, with regard to Trolls their biggest weakness is once you get more than 2 rolls on the H2K table they are probably dead. So a solid Defense is perhaps the most important stat to these if you have them on your front lines. But if you can keep them sheltered until they are engaged then it's not as big of a deal.

To kill a troll

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