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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:54 pm 
Elven Elder
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I disagree, Gothmog's master of battle does not mean he copies every single action an enemy called, only the one(s) his controller wanted him to.Someone says, right I want sucha hero to call sucha heroic/epic action, and Gothmog's player then says, okay I'm going to use Gothmog's ability to copy sucha heroic/epic action for free. First player then says, right lets D6c off, you roll, second player rolls etc...

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:23 pm 
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In Gothmog's profile is says:
"Whernever an enemy hero calls a Heroic or Epic action within 12", Gothmog may immidiately call an identical action without expending a Might point.
So he may copy the action, so it is up to his player.
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:02 pm 
Elven Elder
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Exactly, he does not just replicate any random action.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:23 am 
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GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
I disagree, Gothmog's master of battle does not mean he copies every single action an enemy called, only the one(s) his controller wanted him to.Someone says, right I want sucha hero to call sucha heroic/epic action, and Gothmog's player then says, okay I'm going to use Gothmog's ability to copy sucha heroic/epic action for free. First player then says, right lets D6c off, you roll, second player rolls etc...


Please go back and read what I wrote again.

If both players wish to call actions at the beginning of a phase, roll off to determine which side goes first and then alternate heroes calling actions.
No player has to tell you what action they are calling until after the queue is determined, just that they are going to call one and with what heroes.

Agreed?

Your interpretation -Forcing a roll off after the queue has been determined or just to determine the queue if no other hero on gothmogs side calls an action-i.e. gothmog uses his special to force a roll off. Well If he wins HE MUST COPY WHATEVER THE HERO WAS GOING TO DO. Why? because when you force the roll off with his special rule you have already CHOSEN TO USE HIS SPECIAL RULE and duplicate the action. You used his special to duplicate an action, forcing a roll off. The controller made the choice and may not change this. His rule does say he MAY "call an identical action", well, he just duplicated it to force that roll off. Let me try and be clear, in your interpretation, gothmog uses his special to duplicate an action, which you believe causes a roll off. He now no longer has a choice, he must call the action even if he did not know what it was. I do not believe we are allowed to use part of a special rule.


My interpretation-Because the queue is determined before gothmog knows what actions are called he can not force a roll off to alter the queue. The queue is determined at a time when both players want to use might to call actions at the beginning of the phase. Even if you know what actions are being called, gothmog did not use might to get in the queue, so he must wait until a hero within 12 inches calls an action. In my interpretation gothmog may only use his special to insert his duplicated action after the action has taken place in the queue. There is no other mechanic in the game that I can think of that would allow gothmog to make a choice of whether to duplicate the action or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:53 am 
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With few words- If the player want Gothmog can copy the abiltiy of an enemy, if he does so he gets to make the actiona fter the one that he copied it from... 8)
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:53 pm 
Elven Elder
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Jobu wrote:
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
I disagree, Gothmog's master of battle does not mean he copies every single action an enemy called, only the one(s) his controller wanted him to.Someone says, right I want sucha hero to call sucha heroic/epic action, and Gothmog's player then says, okay I'm going to use Gothmog's ability to copy sucha heroic/epic action for free. First player then says, right lets D6c off, you roll, second player rolls etc...


Please go back and read what I wrote again.

If both players wish to call actions at the beginning of a phase, roll off to determine which side goes first and then alternate heroes calling actions.
No player has to tell you what action they are calling until after the queue is determined, just that they are going to call one and with what heroes.

Agreed?

Your interpretation -Forcing a roll off after the queue has been determined or just to determine the queue if no other hero on gothmogs side calls an action-i.e. gothmog uses his special to force a roll off. Well If he wins HE MUST COPY WHATEVER THE HERO WAS GOING TO DO. Why? because when you force the roll off with his special rule you have already CHOSEN TO USE HIS SPECIAL RULE and duplicate the action. You used his special to duplicate an action, forcing a roll off. The controller made the choice and may not change this. His rule does say he MAY "call an identical action", well, he just duplicated it to force that roll off. Let me try and be clear, in your interpretation, gothmog uses his special to duplicate an action, which you believe causes a roll off. He now no longer has a choice, he must call the action even if he did not know what it was. I do not believe we are allowed to use part of a special rule.


My interpretation-Because the queue is determined before gothmog knows what actions are called he can not force a roll off to alter the queue. The queue is determined at a time when both players want to use might to call actions at the beginning of the phase. Even if you know what actions are being called, gothmog did not use might to get in the queue, so he must wait until a hero within 12 inches calls an action. In my interpretation gothmog may only use his special to insert his duplicated action after the action has taken place in the queue. There is no other mechanic in the game that I can think of that would allow gothmog to make a choice of whether to duplicate the action or not.


First, before I continue, would this also be your stance on Theodred's Epic Intervention. The reason I ask is because i believe your interpretation is how Theodred works not Gothmog. When Gothmog (or probably Theodred as well) is involved in a fight, the oposition reveals what action they are calling and Gothmog's 'ability' is not treated as such, it is a normal heroic/epic action, thus producing a rol-off to see which goes first.

Oh and hello Hilbert, I disagree with the terminology of the word 'copy'.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Yes, that would be the same for epic intervention, and they both work the same way. Theodred's just requires might and only involves epic actions. Why would they be different? The wording between the two is almost exactly the same.
The way the queue of actions is determined: Roll a dice, then "Once all the heroes making actions have been indicated.......work out the actions in the order they were picked". Gothmog can not change the order with a roll off using his special. The roll off has already occurred. Why would his rule force another roll off when the roll off for the queue has already occurred? His special simply allows him to duplicate an action, immediately, meaning the action is inserted in the queue, he duplicates it. Which would work the same for theodred's.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Exactly Jobu... GothmogTheWerewolf what rule would you use? 8)
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:33 pm 
Elven Elder
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The written rules, I don't see why just because Gothmog does so for free and has to do the same action as another hero, that you should not roll off, I do not know how you are getting a different idea. However, I no longer have the will to argue about this matter anymore and will pretend that I agree with you all, as this debate has gone on for far too long.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:10 pm 
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Haha well said mr werewolf agree to disagree .... Although I'm sure someone said they werent going to continue with this thread ages ago!!.
Easy,easy just windy you :rofl:
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:13 pm 
Elven Elder
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That I did, I changed my mind, and then got a little bored, if we agree to disagree and hope we never meet in a battle involving Gothmog :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:08 am 
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Or you both play Gothmog and just copy each other...

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:09 am 
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Beowulf03809 wrote:
Or you both play Gothmog and just copy each other...

For the last day or so I have been trying to think of an ability that would make sense for 2 Gothmogs to simply copy back and forth a bunch, but since actions don't stack there doesn't seem to be a point.
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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Yeah, I don't think you can create a Gothmog Loop (sounds like something from Star Trek). But it's still fun...

Player 1: Amdur calls Epic Strike
Player 2: Gothmog copies him for free!
Player 1: Gothmog copies HIM for free!
Player 2: Alright...MY Amdur calls Epic Rampage
Player 1: Gothmog copies him for free!
Player 2: Gothmog copies HIM for free!

Six Epic Actions for 2 Might. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:31 pm 
Elven Elder
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:lol: that is the difference between him andd Khamul who can have a rebound match with himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:48 pm 
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I know my example was a little simplified, and probably not legal in the timeline of when things can be called, but I do think we're going to start seeing some of these odd events come up if/when GW really gets rolling on official WotR tournaments (maybe the already do in Decent Places…but I don’t live in Decent Places, as Smegol may say). Mordor Gothmog/Nazgul lists can have such a competitive advantage that they are bound to be very popular in tournament level games so you’re going to see Gothmog vs. Gothmog armies. Maybe from such potential muddled order we’ll get a final clarification on how this can be interpreted. And who knows…maybe we’ll also see a recognition that some of these are over powered / under priced and some adjustments made.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:46 pm 
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GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Although I said that I would not comment again, I have changed my mind. Thankyou ForgottennLore for your chivalry. I have though only twice said that it works well and once I believe I did sight evidence. Anyway, this is taken from the description of heroic actions:

Quote:
If both players wish to make Heroic actions in the same phase, then sides alternate picking a Hero to make a Heroic action. Roll a dice to randomly determine which side has the first pick - 1, 2 or 3 the Evil side goes first; 4, 5 or 6 the Good side goes first. Miight cannot be used to affect the resullt.


And here, I repeat what Gothmog's ability says:

Quote:
Whenever an enemy Hero calls a Heroic or Epic action within 12", Gothmog may immediatlycall an identical action without expending a Might point.


This shows that Gothmog is callling a Heroic/Epic action and hence follows the normal rules, which require a D6. Make of it what you will.


I have to say, looking at the rule book, it is clear to me that a roll off would be needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:08 pm 
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The rule states that he immediately calls the same heroic/epic action. This gives him a chance to counter his opponent. In the SBG they describe it as him seeing the flow of battle, allowing him to counter act it. I know that's just "fluff", but it wouldn't make much sense for him to call the same action then have to wait for his opponent to finish what he was doing. This means that both actions are simultaneous, requiring a D6. So Gothmog has a 50/50 chance of countering his opponent. (I bet that this was repeated by someone else, but I didn't feel like reading all of it)

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:49 pm 
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Just to clarify above, where I said a roll off I meant roll a D6 to see if good/evil goes first!

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 Post subject: Re: Gothmog - master of battle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:55 pm 
Elven Elder
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Finally, people who agree with me, I think. However, I believe the discussion is now closed.

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